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      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2013 edited
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    @Winterwolf made a clear and perfect analysis of the situation.
    He is a kind of frightening mutant between François Bayrou and Michel Rocard (yes, I know, it's again a private french joke, but why is WTM so crowded of non french people that even don't know Johnny?).

    But some people want FUN man !

    They want emotion because it's the cause of everything beautiful !!
    They want anarchy !!! Yes anarchy is the better thing that could happen to this poor world.

    They want to fuck the police.

    They want Palahniuk007 to come back !!!
    • CommentAuthorBan
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2013
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    In response to Winterwolf's "Additional: lock votes and let people see the rating" above:

    1. I would assume that in a scenario with friends playing together to get higher ratings, they would try to get high votes on their own shots, so seeing the rating or not doesn't change much, they would just need to vote 10 on everything they upload (and possibly 0 everywhere else). Also, I'd like to keep the ability to see the rating of my own NS shots to see how they goes, and if we leave this each uploader can still tell whoever they want "my shot is too low, please high-vote it"; so I don't see the gain.
    OK though, it applies if people try to track shots that would "compete" with their own to down-vote them.

    2. I don't think this is the norm, and although I understand the idea I don't think low-voting duplicates make much sense. For me voting for another reason than the shot "quality" is a bit pointless, even if the intention might be good. Moreover, one could argue that if you didn't see the rating of the duplicate shot you wouldn't have bothered low-voting it in addition to add a delvote.
    Also, to my personal experience when I start a delvote on a shot even if it has only 24h left or less it is dealt with before the shot reaches FF.
    …And @verpo would tell you that shots with a delvote get bad ratings anyway ;)

    3. I agree with this one. I once voted a shot quite low because I found it boring (http://whatthemovie.com/shot/248478) but then noticed a specific detail that made me change my mind (and solve it but whatever).
    However, I think that if people know they cannot re-vote on a shot they might just think a bit more before voting. But yes basically I agree with this point.

    4. I'd think that your example somewhat misuses voting for technically objective consideration. IMHO, the quality of the image as hardly something to do with the quality of the snap. When I find the quality of a snap really doubtful I fill a delvote (some people might even be mad at me starting votes "jpeg artifacts" on their shots… no hard feelings guys), but still (try to) rate the shot as I would have if it had good quality. Of course there are some exceptions of shots looking not that sharp that would be great if the did but then just look good, but to my eyes it's not really the norm.
    So I agree it's somewhat like 3, but to a waaaay lesser extent IMHO.


    I'm not saying the vote should be visible in NS or not, I don't mind much myself. Admittedly I sometimes had changed my votes after seeing the current average, but up to now it always was because a shot I found quite great (but not *that* awesome) had a low rating so made it 10 instead of say 8-9. But I don't mind and wouldn't miss it, and if it would help in any way I'm all for it. I'm just not sure it is the perfect solution either (see 1. above).


    @efji still mad at http://whatthemovie.com/shot/257216 ? :D Made me laugh my ass off BTW :p (yes I'm French)
    • CommentAuthorWinterwolf
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2013 edited
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    @Ban

    of course they give each other high votes. Thats one thing. The other thing is, if one of them have a chance to SotD, they can seek other shots with chances for Sotd in the FF and than rate them very low. For example you know 3 shots with 8,00 and the other 40 shots have only 7,xx and no chance. You can give away 40 higher votes on bad rated shots and give the 3 good rated shots than just 1-3 stars. Will be not easy for a mod to prove unfair voting, if only 3 of 43 votes will be low. If they not know any other shots rating, they can only manipulate with down vote of all 43 shots, and if they do that, a mod can easily prove unfair voting. 43x low and only some friends a 10, this will be easy to evidence

    Edit: Another good thing. Every morning its a big surprise which shot made SotD. I think this will be funny...
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      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2013 edited
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    I just read the latest comments: many clever considerations, I obviously agree with some of them and not with others... :)

    I need to reply at least to one of those comments.

    @efji: I TOTALLY agree with you when you write that anarchy is the best thing that could happen to this poor world! :)
    But, to me, anarchy does not have anything to do with using ratings to help some shots and damage some other shots, according to personal interest, etc., as somebody does knowing the uploader names and other information.
    On the contrary, to me, those behaviours are very similar to what happens everyday in all parts of this poor world (politics, business, etc.), they are simply unfair and not anarchist at all.
    In my opinion, it's much more anarchist to rate images only according to personal taste and to the emotions that an image can give to each one of us, so that the way we differ one from the other is reflected in the way we rate.
    In other words, the more information are hidden, the more anarchist the system will be, and this is another reason why I am in agreement with hiding everything possible.
    So, the way I see it, if you want increased anarchy here in WTM, you should be in favor of these changes, and not against them... :)
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      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013 edited
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    @JakeBlues

    Totally agree with you. Anarchy is one of the most misused word in all langages. Anarchy has nothing to do with "anarchic" disorder. For example if you search the keyword anarchy on imdb, you find many movies that have nothing to do with it (Fight club, Children of men, Mad Max, War of the Worlds) but more or less with chaos.

    A good (anarchist) system should be self regulated (and fair) by the people itself, without cops.Unfortunately it is an utopy most of the time, because there are always unfair people doing bad things.

    That is a general observation.

    Now let's talk about WTM. Should I recall that it is a GAME ? And what is a game for ? FUN!
    I don't give a shit if a couple of teenagers have fun in inventing some tricky things to get one SoTD, and Mr X or Mrs Y are crying because they deserved one SoTD more, and that's very unfair booooh.

    But if, because of them (all of them, the wise guys and the cryers), the game becomes less fun because of new rules, I'll cry too!

    The last proposition of kinoute seems fair to me, preserving the spirit of the site, and avoiding most of the known tricks (so far) to cheat on SoTD promotion : hide the poster name until the vote is done, and forbid the change of vote.

    But Pala should come back. I'm sure he has a lot of good ideas.
    • CommentAuthorstuken
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013 edited
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    read your comments and thought about it the last days. thats what i think...

    Hide uploaders name: personally i don't mind the name, if you fear a leak of social interaction set it back on visible or give the option to do it. i don't feel restricted by it. but what speaks for it is that you can't guess the shot by knowing the taste of the uploader, you don't get influenced by a name and every day it's a surprise who does the sotd

    Hide rating: absolutely, reasons like mentioned :)

    Freeze rating: could be an experiment. whats not so cool: if you play for a while your taste changes. you get another view about the movies you watched. i don't know who said it but it was something like "every time you watch a movie again, it's another movie, because you are another person.". well, what i want to say :D i recently changed some votes on old snapshots when passing them randomly then watching my rating and thinking whaaaaat? this is quite too much or too less ^^ this would get lost. also the mindchange on snaps after solving it or sometimes, when watching the movie for the first time right after voting for a snap of it, would get lost. on the other hand i think people would mind more before voting, looking twice for details etc., also the rating drop before sotd would stop i guess. if you combine hide and freeze of the rating there would no fear of players with multiple accounts. yeah they still could vote just 10 or 0, but thats also possible now and i guess obvious for the mods. i personally rarely change my vote within a short time, also i rarely rate a shot i can't solve. freeze it if the majority likes it.

    Hide number of solves: le wild shot appears. i know i haven't seen the movie. next look goes to the number of solves. hm, it's in NS for just 2 hours but got 80+ solves, this must be something famous i haven't seen yet... until now i only saw 1 of the 7? harry potter movies, if i see a shot with hundreds of solves within a short time i just guess something famous. and most of the time i'm lucky :) yesterday i solved the hitchcock shot this way, i would have skipped it if the number of solves hadn't made me suspicious. in consequence i rated the shot another way i would do it if i hadn't solved it. better or worse is anyone's guess and depening on the shot. i often can solve shots just by knowing there is a famous movie that could fit. i think you know where i'm pointing at.

    Hide firstsolver: didn't thought about that at all. it doesn't mind imo. the firstsolvers are mostly the highest ranked solver online, aren't they? ^^

    in conclusion: hide name = don't mind, hide rating = definitive, freeze rating = give it a try, hide number of solves = good idea :)

    edit after reading efjis last comment:

    yep, a selfregulating system lead by human seems to be quite impossible :D

    well, is there a game without rules? a good game needs good rules. if there are ways to cheat on them, you need to change your rules, needn't you? i also don't mind some teenagers tricking on wtm, but the game becomes odd if you see a great shot getting rejected after another... i get sad then knowing i'm not going to research that shot a month later, if its not deleted until then. next to uploading and guessing i'm here for finding new movies by interesting shots i see. for me this is the spirit of the game.

    yeah xD Pala for mod! :D
    • CommentAuthorscarygary
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013
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    I brought up the point of hiding "First solved by" identification simply to point out that, just like poster identification, it is a source of bias. So it could be argued that if hiding poster ID has value, than hiding first solved ID would have value, as well. Considering that any of the trophies for first solved are so difficult to attain, some could consider these trophies more valuable than others.

    Where I think the real value in hiding first solved ID until voting is done is that it will reduce one of the variables of vote manipulation. I've frequently seen my own shots get voted down along with several others as one shot gets voted up. I have also seen the inverse, where my shot is the one voted up while those ranked close to mine get voted down. The only reason I see for someone voting up my shot would be: 1- I am part of the collusion group and it was my turn to get a shot in, 2- Somebody REALLY liked my shot and just had to get it accepted, 3- Voting my shot up prevents another shot from being accepted, or 4- It was to help the first solver. From the moderators point of view, it is futile to try to figure our which is the real reason. Only by eliminating variables can their job be made reasonable.
    • CommentAuthorWinterwolf
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013
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    @scarygary

    i don't understand your point... maybe you are just wrong. For first solves count all first solves, doesn't matter they made in the vault, the shots go accepted or rejected, you also you gain your first solve point, if the shot will be deleted because blackbars, dupe etc.

    And forgot another reason i am against vote change: i sometimes want click the field i can enter the solution and hit accidentally the voting bar.
    • CommentAuthorchecknorisk
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013 edited
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    I think hidding the poster's name till Sotd is a good idea, not completely efficient since small communities of fellows will continue to know exactly what shots to support and to discard, but it is on the good direction.

    and with a small guess we will continue to know: b/w =>RDPL55 ,beatnic, nezquivoque... boobs, cheeks and (sometimes much) more : Szpulsky of course ! :)

    anyway, let's give it a try, we'll soon know if it is an improvement or not.
    • CommentAuthorscarygary
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013
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    @Winterwolf

    Thank you for clarifying. Some time back I must have misread (or incorrectly assumed) that the shot had to be accepted for the first solve point to count. My sincere apologies to all for confusing an already complicated issue.
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013
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    And what do we do for contests?
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      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2013
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    @kinoute
    In my opinion, if you want credible results, the same applies for contests: you should hide uploader names and ratings until the contests end and best rated snapshots are rewarded...
    • CommentAuthorAsmodai
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    I got the perfect solution, we just hide all Hall of Fames. Will also save a lot on server-effort.
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    I worked on Macmono's idea just for fun on my local server, you can see it here:




    my server is very slow but on production if we use that it will appear instantly. Youtube fucked up the conversion so its bad but I think you get the idea...
    • CommentAuthorAsmodai
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    And for clarity's sake, this is just an example on how it might look, not a guarantee that this will be implemented.
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    Nice work ! It's good to see an exemple live.
    I really like the hidden overall rating.
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      CommentAuthorstephan
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    I don't know if you really need to put so much thought in this...

    ... but consider you have to hide the NS-Shots (oh, it's kind of a Nazi shortcut, yes I won :-) ) on the profile too (i.e. I can see the shots in NS from @LePaposaure, and btw I just rated them three times with a 10!)

    So, how about just to hide the shot itself. That would result in a random selection, from a scientific point of view this seems quite interesting!
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      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    Even if I think that hiding all the information completely until SotDs are chosen is the best and safest way to reduce at minimum any inappropriate behaviour, kinoute's video example could be an acceptable compromise. :)

    Of course, to complete the job, New Submission shots on profile pages should only be visible to the owner of the profile (if this is technically feasible)...
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    I don't see the point of hiding the first solver to be honest. You have to remind that we do this to fight unfair voting, what the first solver has to do with that?
    • CommentAuthorvepro
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    @kinoute, scarygary thought they only count if a shot reaches FF. so that was the reason for his suggestion.

    one thing is being forgotten here. if people wanna cheat, and do so with help of another players and/or second, third and so on accounts, they will find the way even if you hide the ratings; only difference it's gonna be slightly harder to do so.
    for example: I upload a shot, call all of my friends to vote high, see which snaps go through without help of the mods and tell my friends to vote low on those. and that's it. I don't need number of solves, poster or the ratings to do so. and if somebody has a hard-on with every SotD they get I assure you this will not be a problem for them.

    but, considernig not everybody is that crazy about SotD-s, hiding the voting stats is much better approach and one that, in my opinion, should've been implemented before "hide the uploaders name" one. becouse people choose to down-vote on any snap that has higher score, not judging on the uploader's name.

    my suggestion: bring back the uploaders name, for all the good reasons stated by some people here, hide the votes until the SotD.

    freezing the vote has many flaws (accidental vote, change of heart, solving it and seeing it's indeed a great and important snap for the movie, or the other way around, or just the current state of mind)

    change is good, but let's not get all "1984" here and hide everything, uploaders, votes, number of solves.....
    we can also, by the same key, hide the flags under the snap, make every snap in same ratio and quality cause those are also hints, and yeah, make the character shots ilegal because they also give away too much.

    the fun here is guessing what you don't know, searching, discovering (that is one of the punch lines of the site), remembering (also we can remove fav and bookmark functions, that way I can recognize a snap I've faved before) or pure lucky guessing.

    ok you see where I am going. hiding the votes is really enough to make things more fair around here. and no matter how much restrictions you implement people who choose to cheat will do so.
    cheers
    • CommentAuthorNezquivoque
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    I basically agree with everything vepro just said. As for the suggested addition of hiding the NS on one's profile, well if that were to be implemented, I guess the game would lose its main interest to me... which is yeah, discovering. I discover movies through people : I basically bookmark everything alex68, beatnic, nini or lcvertigo submit, because I generally have great trust in their taste and want to discover movies through them ; and I love that I can be surprised with their choices, etc. ; and I like that there is an affectionate value playing there (and rating has nothing to do with this, I can bookmark a snapshot and still give it a shitty rating). It makes the game much more humane to me, and much more interesting than if I was just standing alone facing a picture, roughly just being ecstatic if b/w, and indifferent if not.
    And yes, just like alex68 and viaud, I love to discover new players, new spectrums of taste, etc. : to me, a snapshot stands for someone. I don't think SotD's are worth losing or complicating that.
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      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    @Nezquivoque @vepro
    I love you
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      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    @Nezquivoque

    I agree with you 100% that we all discover new movies from other users, here on WTM, and that's one of the greatest things about this site. :)
    Luckily enough, hiding ratings, uploader names and the NS on one's profile would not create any problem, in that respect.
    If you have users that you particularly like and you want to know what they upload, you will still find all their snapshots on their profile, either in their accepted or rejected archive.
    In fact, their uploads would only be hidden for 48 hours at the maximum, but they would then become visible for everybody to check them.
    So, the site would not loose at all his capacity of allowing us to discover new movies from other users, and you could still visit the profiles of your favorite users and still find everythig there, no problem about that... :)
    • CommentAuthorviaud
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    MacMono's idea is pretty interesting and I'm grateful to kinoute for trying it.
    And thanks to vepro to say what I thought when I was reading the former shouts.
    I feel really bad with this idea of hiding everything especially on the players wall. I consider this game much more like a funny social network than a real competition... That's why I play. Please don't make it so serious.
    • CommentAuthorNezquivoque
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    @JakeBlues : I'm sorry but it would, I agree with you that it shouldn't theoretically be a problem, but I'm starting to feel the difference on a practical level. I don't really have that much energy (or memory) that I can remember and stalk on a regular basis every user that I like, and inspect every nook and cranny of their profile to look for a shot that I might have missed, nor do I want to go through every accepted shot on a given day to know who their uploaders are. Of course I don't *need* to discover every movie, but I do need the game not to be completely depersonalized -which is what you seem to ask for- otherwise it has no value to me. The new feature seemed fresh at first, but the more I experience it and the less I like it (though interestingly, I did not have a single rejected shot since it's been implemented. I do believe it to be coincidental though). Looking at dozens and dozens of anonymous shots just isn't as appealing to me as it was when there was a name attached (like alex68, I don't care much about the FF and mainly play in the NS section, that won't change).

    Like viaud, the whole thing seems a bit out of proportion to me. I'm in favor of hiding the overall rating, but concretely, is the "bad rating behaviour in order to get SotD's" really so significant that it wouldn't be enough ?
    • CommentAuthorskeuhp0uet
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013 edited
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    I haven't read everything out here, but imo and it seems to be the opinion of others, hiding ratings would be much more powerful than hiding the names of uploaders. Striking example (maybe already listed): if I want to give a good rating of one of my fellows' shot, then I just have to go to his/her profile, click the shot and rate it - although, of course, this is just anti-game.
    So I can't see in this new feature any useful stuff. As already mentioned somewhere, the best now would be to hide all profiles names, wouldn't it? But that would be stupid of course, and without human connexions anymore. Anyway, I don't find this new feature great neither...
    But still, I have real fun playing here, talking to people, and I don't think I'll be able to stop playing one day! So congrats to everyone working on WTM, you make my life better everyday! 8-)
    • CommentAuthorviaud
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2013
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    The good thing is we all agree about hiding ratings ;-)
    • CommentAuthorWinterwolf
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013 edited
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    @JakeBlues

    to "I agree with you 100% that we all discover new movies from other users, here on WTM, and that's one of the greatest things about this site. :)
    Luckily enough, hiding ratings, uploader names and the NS on one's profile would not create any problem, in that respect"

    you read my post, or the post of people like Fungus, Alex68 or Nezquivoque ? Many people not want wait 2 days for get information like uploaders name. You solve about 10-25 shots and look 2 days later who uploaded the shot, much extra doing, that lowers fun of wtm slightly for some people... so i disagree in the point hide uploaders name

    And for @ll who want hide everything:
    another point in the past was, that its a problem, that people rate shots high, which they can solve and rate shots low, which they are not able to solve. There are some shots, everyone is 100% sure he know the solution, but most shots you have to guess and need some tries to solve. To avoid unfair voting, because some people want earn an easy FF Point, you have to hide the green mark of solving a shot too. So you lower the chance of rating unfair in that fact. But then we are back to my example of the Movie Equilibrium (to get 0% crime you have to ban all emotions), to get almost 100% fairness we lower the fun down maybe nearly 0% fun --> i am still 100% agree at @viaud last post. Lets hide the vote until SotD and trust that the mods make a good job and catch the bad guys and ban them etc. and its not necessary to lower the fun for many unguilty player.
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013 edited
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    I don't think the poll will change a lot but it will run until March 31th. So basically we have for now 71% of people who like the idea of hiding the uploader's name in a way (with the ratings hidden too or not) and a minority of players (regular & old one) who says that we're gonna lose the social interactions which are the basis of a community (which is kind of true). So what do we do? Can we find a solution to satisfy both? For now there is the MacMono's idea but nobody (from the players who are afraid of losing the social interactions) said what they really think about it with my video. The inconvenient is we have to lock the ratings. Or we could try to display again the uploader's name and only hide the ratings.
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      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013 edited
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    My personnal preference is to display the uploader's names and hide the ratings. But it is not what the poll says. So. We are democrat. Aren't we? It is difficult to adopt a change that was rejected by the poll.

    The MacMomo's idea was not in the poll, and it could be adopted without being accused of fascism :)

    I vote for that. To me, freeze the vote is not such a big issue. In some above contributions, the vote appears as subtle as rocket science. Buy it is not, fellows! If you once voted 7, and 24 hours later you want to vote 8 or 6 and you cannot any more, the earth won't stop!
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013 edited
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    I just wanted to remind something if some players asked themselves this question since we're talking about locking the ratings with Macmono's idea: if you vote lets say 8 but you didn't solve the shot at that moment, if you solve it hours after your vote is automatically counted as x3. So you don't need to revote after you solved the shot.
    • CommentAuthorAsmodai
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013
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    Sorry, but no: in my eyes we are not a democracy. Nothing on the internet (and possibly in life) is. The staff is not elected, and the players can't demand that their ideas are used, if they get a certain number of votes. We ask for advice (and will in most (but not all) cases follow up on the majority vote), but in the end the creators decide (and when they are missing, the rest of the staff). In the Dutch government we call this "volksraadpleging", which is a referendum where people can vote on their opinion, but it is still to the government to make the final decision, and they can choose not to follow the advice of the votes.
    Besides that: I have not seen a single internet community that is a pure democracy.
    • CommentAuthorviaud
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2013
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    @kinoute
    as I'm part of the players who are afraid of losing interactions because of hiding uploaders names :
    I really like the interface you show us in your video. I think it's going in a good way for everybody. If technically you are able to freeze ratings of course...
    As efji said, the earth won't stop if we make a mistake on one vote.
    • CommentAuthorJackFost
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
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    Hiding the names is a great idea !

    And I vote for hiding the rating too.
    • CommentAuthorMisterZob
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
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    Asmodai and I are opposed to the locking/freezing of ratings. The flaws have been listed by vepro and Winterwolf.

    So far, it seems we'd be going for hiding both uploader's name and ratings until SotD is chosen.
    This would most likely change users' habits, but new habits would emerge.
    And we've also started brainstorming about new features to compensate the community related drawbacks. It's too soon to tell you about those, though.
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      CommentAuthorfungus
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
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    My preference is the same like @efji's: Display the uploader but hide the rating. Since the names are hidden I didn't notice any changes with ratings at all. I really don't see the usefulness of this rule.

    I can live with @MacMono's suggestion. I sometimes tend to change a vote, when I can solve a shot or if I notice something I didn't see before. However @efji is right, this has no big impact. The few times I accidentally hit the ratings with my mouse instead of the thing I actually wanted are the only drawback here, but this happens very seldom.
    • CommentAuthorRedman
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013 edited
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    I agree with hiding both rating and uploader's name. It seems to be the most fair way to play and rate since it avoids manipulation and/or "cronyism" rating (which is what I hate the most actually). And to go all the way it would be logical to hide NS in users's profile too.
    • CommentAuthorWinterwolf
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
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    @MisterZob

    glad to read this...


    about "new features to compensate the community related drawbacks"... i hope the staff think about something like a feature in the account settings, either

    - show uploaders name : ( ) to none ( ) only fellows ( ) all

    Like it already exist for nudity etc. Of course standard set is "to none" and every uploader can decide what he like more, fun and communication or some more fair votings

    - or make something like a community group. If you change the standard in the settings of "no" to "yes" you can see in future all uploaders name on shots, which choosen "yes" for this group.


    if one of the ideas get introduced, i think the one half can have fun as before and the other half can have their fair voting on her/his shot. Should make all people happy. And of course the rating is on both ideas hidden until SotD is out for this day.
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      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
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    First of all, I know and understand that WTM is not a democracy and that who created and owns the site decides the rules.
    As a consequence to this, we are only expressing personal opinions here, and then who created and owns the site will have the final word on this: I am personally ready to accept this, as per the nature of the site (and of the world in general). :)

    This being said, I believe that what makes WTM the fantastic site that we all know and like are not only who created, who owns and who manages the site, but the users as well, that everyday upload, rate and comment the snapshots.
    The users' opinion is or should therefore be very important and, whenever possible, respected.
    It is great that kinoute had the will and even the courage to experiment with hiding the uploader's name and to create a poll to understand what the users think about it.
    Now, approx. 30 hardcore users posted their opinions here in the forum but, much more numerically relevant, updated at 10.00 pm tonight, we have 190 users, equivalent to 71% of the votes, that esplicitly approved the choice of hiding the uploader's name.
    In addition to that, we also have a total of 134 users that want the ratings to be hidden (104 want them to be hidden together with the uploader's name and 30 want only the ratings to be hidden).
    So the vast, absolute majority of WTM users openly declared to like and prefer the uploader's name and the ratings to be hidden until SotDs are chosen.
    Even knowing that WTM is not a democracy, I can really hope that a poll that gives such a clear result will be taken seriously and that the opinion of the vast majority of the users will be respected... :)

    Some consequential considerations:

    1) The greatest majority coming out of the poll is the number of users that like the uploader's name to be hidden, so I believe that this should really be left hidden after this test.
    If the will of the majority is going to be respected, it is essential to complete this modification by hiding the NS on the profile pages as well (if technically possible), because without this it's still possible to unfairly help or penalize a user by first looking his NS on his profile page and then proceed with an unfair voting behaviour.

    2) I really hope that a decision will be taken to also hide the ratings, as the majority of users liking it is almost as vast as the one liking the uploader's name to be hidden.
    What, in my opinion, won't work at all is the solution to somehow let the uploader's name visible and only hide the rating.
    In this case, all the unfairness linked to adjust the ratings according to the fact that who rates likes or dislike a certain user would remain, and this would seriously compromise the impartiality and credibility of the rating system.

    3) Kinoute's youtube example, to me, remains a good compromise in the way the system could work in the future.
    I personally believe that those two informations should remain completely hidden to everybody until SotDs are chosen, to really have the safest possible system under an impartiality point of view, but again that's a good compromise, provided that NS can be hidden on profile pages too to users, until their vote has been given and cannot be changed anymore.

    END OF PART ONE
    •  
      CommentAuthorJakeBlues
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     permalink
    PART TWO

    4) I am not surprised that some "senators" (this being said in a respectful sense) of the site are against this changes: who has been playing here on WTM for a long time, who had success and satisfaction out of the existing system, will understandably enough be more resistant to change.
    But, if you decide to go back to the previous system, we will continue having users that rate an image not only according to its awesomeness or ugliness as it should be, but because that image is uploaded by "user x" or "user y".
    Even if this not a deliberate behaviour and is not made on purpose, more or less unconsciously everybody tends to give one or to rating points more or less to an image because that image is a "user x" image, which I am friend with or which I for some reasons dislike. And I am sure that everybody agrees that this is not fair.
    In the end, if final decisions will be taken to maintain the uploader's name hidden and also hide the ratings, as WTM "senators" are able to post great snapshots, they will adjust as well as everybody else and even better to these new rules and continue succeeding as before.
    Only, their snapshots will have to earn and deserve everytime to enter in the FF only because or their awesomeness and not because of the blazon of being a "user x" image, as it will happen for everybody else...

    5) I am also sure that the social element in the site will survive and continue to prosper, as everybody will adjust to the new system, whatever that system will be, even more so if kinoute and the moderators will implement some new social features, as anticipated.
    It's only a question of getting used to changes, and this is obviously easier for who is less used to a system and newer in an environment (I am already getting used to it and my interactions are still active).

    Finally, @Winterwolf: yes, I read all the comments, I appreciated and respected all of them, of course as everybody I tend to agree with somebody on something and on somebody else on something else: we are all expressing our opinions here, I guess this is the goal of this topic on the forum... :)

    Thanks for reading me and sorry if I was too verbose: goodnight everybody!
    • CommentAuthorBan
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     permalink
    I'm all for giving @kinoute's video example a try, it looks great to me.

    About freezing the ratings being a problem, I personally think that it's not that much of an issue and may only require players to change a little their habits to think a little more before rating.
    However if it's an issue for many, maybe as I suggested the following could be done:

    1) uploader name is hidden;
    2) voting is hidden and modifiable at will;
    3) when voting, the uploader name is not displayed;
    4) when e.g. clicking on the hidden name, it displays the uploader's name and locks the vote.

    This would require one more click to see the uploader's name, but would allow to both edit the rating and see the uploader's name before SotD, while preventing any vote based on who uploaded what. Actually, players could choose "ok, I'm fine with my rating show me the uploader's name" or "I don't mind the uploader's name but I want to be able to change my vote".

    Alternatively maybe adding a setting to chose whether to show the uploader's name or leave the ratings modifiable could please the different opinions (though it would maybe be a pain to implement for one not to be able to turn it on/off to cheat -- e.g. it would only apply to shots newer than the setting change or something).

    BTW, is the vote still locked after the SotD is chosen? It probably don't need to be, and so one can still change her mind, she just has to wait maybe 48 hours.
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013 edited
     permalink
    You mean make something optional in the settings? "See uploader's name in the NS/FF after voting (you won't be able to change your vote until the SotD is chosen)"

    I pretty much like it because its better than the option for a poster to hide his name or not (too confusing).
    • CommentAuthorBan
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     permalink
    Yes.

    And I agree that having the setting in the uploader side would probably be confusing ("why are some snaps posted by Hidden? I don't get it, snaps from other people are displayed normally"), and maybe even defeat some of the purpose. Also the uploader can't really know what the players seeing her snaps want ^^
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013 edited
     permalink
    So basically people will have the choice between:

    - Lose the possibility of changing their votes (Show the uploader's name after voting, overall rating hidden; by default in the settings);
    - Or lose social interactions (Can change the rating but poster & ratings hidden until the SotD is chosen & New submissions on profile hidden as well).

    /Discuss

    I still think the feature should be the same for everybody, it's easier but eh?
    •  
      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     permalink
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107616/?ref_=sr_2

    All this for a few (how many have you spotted guys?) players changing their votes for one Sotd. Come on!

    I think we'll loose MUCH by adopting a solution where the uploader's name is hidden anyway.
    We'll loose totally the possibility to know who posted a rejected shot. A that's a very bad feature. Much worse than the nightly manipulations of a few teenagers that want one sodt more.

    And all this discussion about the "objectivity" of votes makes me laugh. We all had many shots rejected with a very low rating, and accepted a few weeks later with a high notation.
    • CommentAuthorscarygary
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     permalink
    Voting shenanigans are affecting more than just the SotD. In my opinion, votes are being manipulated to get shots into FF, as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorefji
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     permalink
    I think there is a lot a paranoia around there.

    As many of you, I have had some rejected shots that were accepted later when posted by another player. Then it is easy to complain that some people don't like me and vote low to all of my shots. But it is forgetting that the voting process is characterized by A LOT of ramdom. More than the plots of a few players.

    I bet that with the new, completly hidden, system, the global behaviour of the FF promotion process will not be affected. And we'll had losed a lot of fun.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfungus
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2013
     permalink
    @efji you speak out of my mind.

    After 1400 accepted shots I still cannot predict which shot will get a good and which a bad rating. But I can predict fairly well the average of my shots. There is much noise in the ratings which is no surprise since there are seldom more than 50 ratings per shot. Depending on who's rating, some shots get rejected one week and accepted another. 10 people with different taste may make the difference. I know I had times when I almost didn't vote at all and others when I voted almost every shot.

    We had this discussion many times here in the forum and the moderators always confirmed that there is no big evil scheme to be detected behind the ratings. If it really would be a problem it would have been detected by now.

    I agree there is too much paranoia here and it really is much ado about nothing. Don't take yourself too seriously and accept that sometimes the players who vote don't like one of your shots (it happens to every single one of us and it usually has nothing to do with the uploader). There are other times however, when you are surprised with a very good rating. Appreciate those moments and forget about the others.

    I really fear the same thing as efji and right now, I'm not sure if I'll stay around in an anonymized NS. It got much too serious around here, lately.

    P.S.: I can live with the proposition of @Ban. I'm ready to trade the possibility of changing my vote for knowing the uploader, even if it is tiresome when you always have to click twice. Maybe you could make it an optional setting for those who are willing to give it up for good and not want to do it on every single shot.
    • CommentAuthorkinoute
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2013 edited
     permalink
    Let's try something starting (on the server) tomorrow morning.
    • CommentAuthorscarygary
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2013
     permalink
    I think the mods have the best interest of the game at heart. I also think that they cannot get to the root of the problem, or even determine if there truly is a problem, without testing these options discussed. They know what they were seeing prior to hiding poster ID. Now they know what they have seen after hiding poster ID (if anything). If they continue down this path, they should be able to determine if any of these changes will have any positive benefits. You guys may be right, maybe a number of us are just paranoid. I think we should trust in the mods to test drive the system.

    And just for the record, I truly hope you are right and that we are just paranoid.