Strange things are happening with "posted by"... Something might went wrong

I see nothing - refresh - uploader is hidden - refresh - uploader is hidden and visible in the same time - refresh - uploader is visible



It is similar with votings. Sometimes overall rating is hidden, sometimes it's not and when I'm back to overview in NS I can see all ratings

Not all of us are probably considering the same kind of unfair voting, in here, imho.
What I'm making reference to is not the "bunch of teenagers" who are trying to promote their shots to the FF.
I think that those are marginal cases, something that the moderators are probably able to easily control and eliminate.
What I'm referring to is something totally different.
WTM is a well established community, it's been on line for many years now.
In this community, as in all kind of communities, people start to build relationships, friendships, likes and dislikes, etc.
Also, within a community, participants grow their personal reputation.
As years go by, those reputations become well known, especially amongst regular, hardcore users.
At a certain point, going back to this specific community, a certain user become known for posting, for example, unusual b/w shots from old and forgotten movies, another one for posting nudes, etc.
I believe that, at a certain point, for some users, their reputation could have become more important and considered than the quality of all his shots.
What I mean is that, amongst the old timers, hardcore users, a system started to be in place where some ratings are given to images not because they are beautiful or ugly, but because they are images uploaded by "User X", who has a strong reputation for b/w shots, or by "User Y", that everybody loves because he is around since the beginning, etc.
In the end, what happens is that many of us, if able to know who the uploader is, will rate images differently, according to how much he likes or consider the uploader, more than according to the real quality of the image.
It seems to me that the average number of votes for images in the NS, before they get either accepted or rejected, is normally around 50. If let's say approx. 30 out of this 50 are old timers, hardcore users that have relevant interactions between themselves and know each other's reputation, I am convinced that a lot of the voting process is heavily influenced by all the factors detailed above, and this to me is unfair and is penalizing users that are newer to the site, less known, with a reputation that is still to be created.
For this reason I think that, if we want to put everybody on the same level and give to everybody the same chances to have snapshots accepted and even some SotD from time to time, the only way to go is to totally hide the uploader's name to everybody, at least until votes are given and cannot be changed anymore (or, even better, until SotD are chosen).
Hiding the uploader's name, considering all of the above, is therefore much more important than hiding the ratings.
In fact ratings will automatically continue to be higher for certain uploaders and lower for others, because of the reputation issue detailed above, if the uploader's name will not be hidden.
This is the reason why hiding only the ratings but not the uploader's name is not going to change the system significantly.
All the above, of course, if we all agree that each one of us playing here on WTM should have the same chances and opportunities, and that everybody, even the "senators" (this always being said in a respectful sense), must have every single shot rated only according to its awesomeness and accepted or rejected accordingly, and not a privileged treatment because of his reputation as an historic, successfull uploader.
On the other hand, if what we want is to recognize to some users a privileged treatment because they have been around for a long time, they are friend, they have posted lots and lots of fantastic shots in the past, we can leave the system as it is.
This option is also understandable: in a well established community many times there are privileges for important persons with strong reputations, and maybe this is also acceptable, to some extent.
What I believe is that it would be a little hypocrite to even partially leave the uploader's name visible and justify this because of the social interactions, or other similar reasons: If we want to be honest with ourselves, we must at least recognize and accept that the system as it was, with uploader's name (and only consequentially ratings) visible, will always give advantages to a certain number of well established users within the WTM community, and will continue to make it harder for the rest of newer, less known users to both have images accepted and SotDs...
Again and as always, the considerations above are written with all due respect to everybody and only as a personal opinion . :)

We are sliding here... :-)

And, besides the mandatory "SIR, YES SIR!", @efji: I am obviously referring to the 24 shots per day selected by scruffy according to the (fair or unfair) rating system, not to the shots chosen by the HOLY (with one "l" only) mods...

You're right private @JakeBlues
Only the woods take two "l", not the Holymods.

Now about the 24 shots.
Imagine an hardcore player. A good old one. Me for instance, if one of these holyshit holymods would'nt had banned me for uploading too many beautiful shots!

I upload a shot that fairly objectively deserves a 8. (a quite low rating for me, but senators must be humble when they talk to simple people).
Then of course, as you said, since I am a senator, some people around want to please me anyway and vote a 10. Let's imagine they are 10. Now, since I am powerful, handsome, brilliant, and moreover frog eater, there are always some jealous people that hate me. Imagine that 2 of them vote 1 and another one vote 2. The rest of the players are perfectly fair and give an 8.

Do the maths private @JakeBlue, do the maths.
What happens to my overal rating?

@JakeBlues,
there is no senior vs noobs conspiracy on this page. couple years ago, when I was a noob myself, I first started to upload, and I only uploaded snaps I like. it is hard to go that way since I like gore and not so popular movies. and I didn't once, during my transformation from a noob to a little more experienced player, felt like people down vote or up vote my snaps according to my time spent on the page.
I just noticed that a snap has to be really fucking good to make it on it's own if it is solved under 60 or so people. known movie - more voters; more voters - more people among them who vote high on snap they solved in order to gain ff points. thus - every snap from shining is in the database along with potc, alien and hp and so on.
I think this sucks personaly, but that does not mean it is unfair, or we should therefore ban the known movies from uploading, hide the number of solves or anything restrictive as that.
the system was mostly fair in my opinion, hiding the ratings might make it even more fair, but everything else is just going to far and taking this stuff to serious.

@vepro
Thanks for your comments and for sharing your personal experience. :)
Unlike you, I believe that the existing system is unfair, and I tried to explain it in detail with my previous posts.
I also know that a lot of users share my opinion, not to mention the results coming from the poll...
In any case, please be assured that I am not taking all this seriously, and I will continue not to take it seriously, regardless of the final decision that will be taken on this specific subject. :)
On the other hand, never forget that "we live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities". (Oscar Wilde)

@ kinoute,
hm hm, when it comes to mods, I think they're the only ones who shouldn't see the uploaders name, if you choose to implement such an option, but again, I think the system, including mods was fair enough.

@JakeBlues,

I don't see the people you agree with sharing their opinions here, well at least in extent shown by the poll numbers.
I'd say there is about 150 regular users and another 300 casual players who could take part in this discussion to speak their mind. kinoute can correct me if I'm wrong in the numbers, those are just my impressions.

my 12 uploads since hiding the uploader: average rating 6.89; shots accepted: 7, shots rejected: 5
last 12 uploads before hiding the uploader: average rating 6.67; shots accepted: 7, shots rejected: 5



Thank's @kinoute for the changes. I really appreciate it. And let's see if hiding the votes has more impact on my stats.

Oh, and just for clarity and in all fairness, since he brought it up himself. "one of these holyshit holymods" banned efji for uploading shots stolen from the web, not for posting beautiful images. Also, the ban is this long since this was't the first time.

==personal opinion==
But the rest of what he said was right, I think: in those few cases where people rate the user, not the shot, this can have both positive and negative effects: net result 0. And I also believe this happens rarely, and certainly not consistently and on a large scale, or we'd have seen it.
However, I think the SotD-formula is a little more complex than just adding 3x10, I don't know it myself, but don't go checking your ratings and complaining it doesn't work ;) But yes, favorites are a major part in this. I can tell you, however, that SotD's regularly get checked for unfair behaviour, as well as contenders next to it. Both from friends giving 10's, as contenders giving 1's.

"In my opinion, all this agitation about the votes is an overeaction to the behaviour of a small minority of players that have almost no influence, and a misunderstanding of the power of randomness..." <-- hear hear!
==end personal opinion==

@checknorisk
the rating is hidden now, lets see if there is a remarkable difference

@stuken and everybody.
Let's see!

The new system started on march 18 (hidden names, then hidden ratings). Here is the plot of the rating of the sotd in both systems (red: old system, green new one) and the mean rating of all the shots in FF each day (black)



What can we see ?

1/ The overall rating of shots in FF did not change. The mean value is around 7.1 and the linear regression is almost flat.
2/ The mean rating of the sotd droped significantly in the new system (from 7.85 to 7.65).

Doing these stats, I found something unexpected: if you plot the ratings of the shots in FF sequentially each day, and do a linear regression, you see that most of the time (with a probability greater than 2/3) the ratings are increasing during the day. It means that shots accepted at the end of the day have higher ratings than shots accepted in the morning.

I have maybe an explanation: there are roughly 2 series of shots pushed my the mods. Maybe the morning shots are more difficults (and get lower ratings), and evening shots are more or less the ones that could have been selected by scruffy, but missed it for just a few tenths of point. Two different mods and habits ?

@efji
Interesting data, good job! :)
The point is that your consideration are in general and don't take into consideration how things are going for individual users, and that's where everything changes, when information such as uploader's name and rating are hidden...

@Asmodai
I totally agree with you on the fact that some wonderful shots will unfortunately always be rejected, but I do not agree that shots that are accepted are most of the time wonderful (this also being a personal opinion).
I might be seeing ghosts, but the fact that, for me, the percentage of accepted shots significantly improved when my name was hidden and significantly dropped now that the name is visible again is a fact.
And, if I am seeing ghosts, according to the poll the majority of WTM users are seeing the same ghosts: we might try solving the problem by calling the Ghostbusters (or, more easily, by simply hiding uploader's names)... :)

:) Great Asmo!
I could add that most of the people choose the first item in general.
For example on TV, the first channel is always privileged.

It remembers me a (real) anecdote: in the 90's in France, each year took place a big night of fund raising for AIDS (it was called "Sidaction"). One year they chose to broadcast the same movie, at the same time on each
of the 5 free channels (It was "Tacones lejanos", good choice!).
The next day, the audience report was exactly as expected: Channel 1 (TF1) was first, and then 2, 3, 5 and 6...

Just a simple observation (more careful consideration later):

"What do you think of hiding the uploader's name in the NS/FF until the SotD is chosen?"

- This is a good idea against unfair voting ---> 122 votes
- Cool but the ratings need to be hidden too ---> 140 votes

Total: 262 votes

(Pardon me if I ignore the other three options results for the moment)

Now, last SotD, #263264, was voted by only 62 people... the last 2 b/w SotDs, #263191 and #262482, by less than 50 people!

A simple solution? Maybe, 200 people (at least) should vote on the snapshots too and not only on the poll :)

kinoute: I think he suggests it to the users, not as something we should build into the system :P But there is some truth in it: the more votes, the more "fair" the rating will be. Fair here meaning in agreement with the average taste of people ;)

Ok, fair enough. You know people are voting a lot in the NS and there a shot stays for a maximum of 48h. The poll was opened for more than two weeks and we only got 361 registered players who gave their opinion so its nearly impossible to grab this amount of votes for a single shot in that time. Players may vote when the shot goes to FF but the next day, it's done. And what makes you think that people who voted for the first & the second option are the one who don't rate shots?

And that's maybe the smartest thing anybody (including myself) said in this topic :)

Of course a test that lasts only for few days and with only partially hidden informations is not really significant.

Of course a poll that only lasts for a few days can give only a partial result (even if I believe that the users who are active on a regular basis on the site are the ones that voted, and the results are very clear).

What we are discussing here, though, is not an opinion, and doesn't really need tests or polls to be proven.
If this site has a contest, where users compete to have their images best rated to be accepted in a database and to win achievements such as SotD, etc., the need to hide any information that could in any way influentiate the rating process, besides the awesomeness of the shot, is a fact, not an opinion.

As a passionate photographer (Asmodai also knows about this), I know how photography contest are held, and the first need for a jury to express fair ratings for the images appearing in contests is the absolute need not to know anything about those images, ESPECIALLY the names of the authors.
This is a basic rule of ANY contest where results are made out of ratings coming from a jury, from voters.

It is as simple as that: there's no need to discuss this a lot, to make trials, to have polls (that, by the way, apparently seem to be considered significant only if they give certain results).

A contest based on images, based on aesthetics and art, needs to be impartial: who rates MUST NOT KNOW anything about that image, so that he can really focus only on the image.
As long as all those informations, starting with the uploader's name, will not be hidden, this (otherwise fantastic) site will not be a serious contest, with credible results and a database really containing the best images.
It will continue to be a beautiful site where a bunch of regular, hardcore users will continue to be the ones who are uploading the majority of the snapshots, congratulating each other because they give high ratings one another, consequentially having their images accepted, obtaining achievements, etc.
In other words, a closed environment, a small thing for a limited group of people.
This would be fair enough: if this is what who ownes and manages the site wants, it's totally acceptable and comprehensible.

But if what we really want is a site that becomes universal, a big thing, an impartial system where everybody can give his contribution with the same chances as all the other users and where the real best images from movies are accepted in the database and win achievements in a credible way, it is undeniable that all those informations have to be hidden, not because of trials, not because of polls but because this is the only serious and credible approach.

I perfectly understand that it would be hard to take this decision, especially because who needs to take this decision might have a negative impact of the new system on his performance as uploader.
It goes without saying, in fact and to make another clear example, that most of the users will always be very careful rating images coming from moderators, knowing that those same moderators, as per the way the system is organized, have the power to magically accept images.
The votes to moderators, as long as their names are visible, will always be in the vast majority of cases "political", "diplomatic" votes.
Come on guys, maybe not all of us are willing to openly declare this, but we all know that this is true!
This is just another example of the unfairness of the existing rating system, in addition to the "reputation" issue of regular, oldtimer users, as per my previous comments...
And for this reason I understand that it would be a very brave and courageus decision if you decide to implement those fundamental changes.
If you do that, you will earn lots of respect from everybody, starting with me: no doubt about it.
But if you choose not to do that, please just be honest and not hypocrite, and just plainly declare that you like the system as it is now, that you consider its unfairness as an acceptable compensation for all the (great!) work that you do on the site, that you prefer to have a group of privileged users (yourselves included) who will continue to have advantages over the rest of the users.
I would accept such a decision and understand your reasons.
On the other hand, I would feel my intelligence a little offended if you won't correct the unfairness of the rating process using not credible excuses such as tests not being significant, polls not having enough voters, how this would affect the social interaction between users, etc.

Thanks in advance for treating us with honesty, regardless of the final decisions that you will take on this matter.

Oh, and by the way, @WiZo: I am having fun with WTM, I enjoy it, it's my affection for the site that drives me to spend some of my time trying to make the site a better place for everybody! :)

@JakeBlues : If this is your goal:

"...where everybody can give his contribution with the same chances as all the other users and where the real best images from movies are accepted in the database and win achievements in a credible way..."

then you have to change way more than hiding the uploader and the votes. According to your logic, moderators shouldn't be allowed anymore to push shots to FF because they act (not only but to a certain degree) in line with their individual taste. According to your post you even imply they may be influenced by the votes of other users on their shots.

So, still in this logic, FF shots would be selected only through the votes of the users. As we know from the early times this doesn't guarantee that "only the best images are accepted". What happens is that shots (bad or good) from well-known movies with a lot of solves get accepted more often and shots from obscure and/or black-and-white movies only get through when they are outstanding. I once did a statistical investigation of my own uploads. There was a significant positive correlation between number of solves and rating (after correcting for other factors as b/w or animation shots or time trend). If a shot had about 500 solves the rating was on average more almost one point higher than when it had only about 20 solves. This effect has nothing to do with hiding uploader or voter, it's just that people tend to vote higher if they can solve the shot. So you won't get the "best" images if you only let the people vote on them.

The only other way is to select a jury to vote as it is the case in your photography contests. But the problem still exists. If can solve the shot you may rate it differently than if you don't know the movie (and that's why your comparison with photography contests doesn't hold in this context). In the beginning of this site, the creators chose the shots for FF from the contributions of the users (NS didn't exist back than). As an uploader you could explain in a short text box, why this shot was exceptional in case the creators didn't know the movie. However, this proved to be impractical and the deciders were attacked by many users (see e.g. http://forum.whatthemovie.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=8 ). So who should be in this jury and how many and shouldn't they be forbidden to upload shots themselves? I don't think this is a solution that could work and it is definitely not in the spirit of the site.

I myself don't have the goal to only see the best images of movie, there are way too many I don't like (like character shots e.g.). My goal is to find new and interesting movies. Unfortunately, the shots I find intruiging are often not well-liked by the majority. So, I'm glad I have the possiblity of social interaction and the mods pushing a variety of shots.

If you really want to do something against unfair rating, and I stand with my opinion that it is no systematic problem at the moment, you should try to get more users to vote on shots. The more votes the less important is one single vote.

@JakeBlues

- If some friends want helping each other, they can do it further, if you hide the uploaders name. They have side options like look on his friends profile. If you hide this too, there are still other opions like make a facebook group or send shot links per e-mail or chat and they still give each other a 10. WTM got the problem about 1 year ago with group of french players, who shared solutions of FF and Vault shots.

- a main problem seems to be, that people give higher votes on shots they can solve and lesser votes on which they can not solve (in average).

- what will be the solution, if a uploader want protect his on shot, to get a own shot in FF or make SotD? It doesn't matter, if he know a uploaders name or not, he can look for nice shots in the overview and rate all nice shots low.

You need to solve all 3 problems, if you really want a fair vote. At first you can hide uploader, but how to solve the problems to mail shot number via e-mail or chat or facebook? Impossible... Hide solution of a shot will help at 2nd problem, so playing without restriction is only possible after SotD is giving away, i think many people will leave the NS because of this. And at 3rd problem, you will loose all uploader votes on shots.
So in the end you have insteed of 50 votes, maybe only 10 votes left. Every vote will now count about 10% of the rating. And after making so much more fair, at the end its maybe still much unfair as before... hurrah for all people have a friend or more, who not upload shots and can help his friend(s). And all others, too bad, all your shots go rejected because no friend helps you!

But all for all 3 problems the mods have tools to find unfair player. So for me its still the best we trust the mods make a good job. If you want 100% fairness, you maybe have to shut down WTM! And 0% fun^^ Never look just at 1 side of the medal, always look on both sides, then you maybe see you are right with almost all points on 1 side, but see on the other side, its not good at all. Maybe if count all together, its even bader as before...

It's the same like communism, there are so many points in theory, that almost all people agree, but in the end it never works. A good idea is not always praticable... maybe we should mass our enduration for more fairness in some less points, which not lower the fun and gameplay much. Don't forget, the mods have an eye on everything. Maybe we should talk about more mods, if you think, the system run to much unfair now.

Or some other things can be changed. For example something @Fungus @Alex68 already said. 1 vote of 10 counts 10%, 1 of 50 counts 2%, 1 vote of 200 counts 0,5%. So if we get more votes on shots, one unfair vote gets more insignificant. I personally dont like restrictions like @Alex68 want, need to vote on a shot before you are able to solve a shot. Because if i want make a first solve a have to be fast, i dont want waste time what rating i give the shot. I want fast enter the solution at this time, nothing else! But a long time ago @Palahniuk007 got an idea, many people liked his idea, at least @Chrisy, at this time still was a mod, but become forgotten until now. If you rate shots in NS you earn WTM Bucks, but this Bucks are quiet useless, in lower ranks you can unlock some things like make replacements or vote for deletion on shots etc. But after 2-3 months earing Bucks gets to be useless. So they got the idea, given away AU for Bucks, if i remember right, something like 10000 Bucks for an AU. You need to play a month long daily in the NS to get this amount of Bucks. Maybe some people are at the moment to lazy to vote, will do it in the future, if this old idea will be picked up again.
My own opinion to add, i think it will be nice, if people can reupload with Bucks only own rejected shots. There was also a big discussion here at the forum that rejected shots are for many people a big disappointment. And this additional restriction will protect from some problems like
- spamming shots of a new well known movie (because you need first a NS Slot to get a rejected)
- shots with something wrong (blacks bars, bad quality) should already been deleted while being in the NS
- people can itself push a bad rated shot, that they really like (which not get mod love), this make rejected shots not total useless

To solve things like people losing ranks: either never loose a reached rank, or give away the possible AU for points they earned. So if you earned 40000 bucks, you can re upload 4 rejected shots to FF, if you done it, you still have 40000 bucks and just 0 uploads left. To have not a rejected spam after unlock this feature, at first time maybe a restriction of 1 shot a day for each user is needed. Or a maximum of reuploaded shots of 20 a day, who is to slow, have to wait for the next day. In fact that you need 1 month to earn enough bucks for 1 AU, this should be just a problem at the first months and no problem later...

== personal opinions ==

"shots that are worth to be in FF and that users don't (...) understand"
"shots that are important but not appreciated"

Come on..
1: It's a game
2: shots aren't "important", maybe to the movie, but that's not really the point of the game
3: it's a game
4: who decides if shots are "important" but the normal crowd is too stupid to realize this?
5: IT'S A GAME, FFS!

Also, mods also need to see uploader names for other reasons, what about checking with somebody about a release date? Or giving somebody tips on how to improve shots?

The point here, is that some people see the site as a game that they MUST "win", or that other's can't "win" if they play unfair, or whatever. Yes, fair play is nice, but it's not the end of the world if people rate one of your shots lower than you want. This is NOT because of you, if you think this for every shot, maybe it's time to take a course on how to improve your self esteem. I am guessing that around 90% of the events on the sites is what I would call fair, the other 10 % is for the main part loose events that don't really matter to any total results, leaving maybe 1 % or less of "real cheaters". From time to time the mods catch one, that's why they are there in the first place, and they have plenty of tricks up their sleaves to figure out who they are.
Some other people, including myself, see this site as a place for movie lovers: a place where you can discuss movies, enjoy the beautiful shots they have and maybe enjoy a bit of quizzing in between. For this to work nicely, it is handy to know who you are talking with, to give stuff like this:
- Hey, I noticed you saw that movie you recommended, how did you like it?
- Hey, mind if I borrow this disc / can you take a replacement shot for me, since your quality is that good?
- Hey, beautiful girl, want to go out? (PALAHNIUK, STOP HACKING INTO MY COMPUTER!)
...

Anyways, social things are (in my eyes) way more important than all your petty bickering over ratings, cheating and whatnot. And this is all I will say for now on this topic. If there are any staff-related question, I will occasionally check the posts to answer this, but besides that I am really getting annoyed by some people. If people want my opinions (either as a mod or a longtime user) on specific things, feel free to leave me a shout.

== staff ==
We are working on maybe new rights with ranks etc. More info to come on this later, when we have worked it out more. Also, this isn't really on topic so I suggest people who want to discuss it anyways start a new one, to keep things orderly ;)

I think the upload rejected shots with every x bucks earned is genius.

PART TWO

"This is NOT because of you, if you think this for every shot, maybe it's time to take a course on how to improve your self esteem."
Again, if you knew me in real life you would know that improving my self esteem is not really an issue... :)
By the way, I started uploading snapshots 10 months ago, since then I had approx. 250 accepted snapshots and 5 SotD: not a bad result, considering that I obtained those results with the existing imperfect system (especially for a new user).
So this is not about self esteem, is about correcting and unfair system for everybody, not just for me.
I'll make just one concrete example of the hundreds that I could make reference to, on my shots and on other users shots.
Just this morning this shot was rejected: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/264655
This is a masterpiece from Matisse, objectively good and beautiful enough to compete for the SotD, not because I posted it, but because it is a masterpiece from Matisse (and we saw even in recent times shots from less famous paintings than this one being promoted SotD).
Instead of competing for SotD, this was not even accepted (rating is 6.54)!
Shall we talk about Matisse' self esteem or we just honestly admit that the system is not working as it should?
Evidently, the name of the uploader is even more important than the name of the genius who painted a masterpiece: surreal!
It is 100% sure that, if the same shot was posted by any of the long time users, the shot would be in the FF archive since yesterday, with some appreciation shouts, some fav, etc.
The sad part of it is that the archive keeps losing shots like this one, the system to solve the problem is known and, for the resistance to change of some users, things keep going the same way.
It is the site itself that suffers from this situation, losing fantastic shots and its credibility, together with those shots...

For the last time, I REALLY hope that you'll finally have the courage to make the necessary corrections, hiding the sensible informations from new submission shots.
I will not bother and annoy you on this furthermore: my points are clear, well explained and proved with specific and well-fitting examples.
If you want to change the system, you know how to do that, for the good of the site itself.
If you choose NOT to change the system, just be conscious that you will really loose the great opportunity to make this site much better than it is today.

Just always remember that my intentions were good, in good faith and for the general interest of the site and its users.
What I got in return, instead of appreciation for being open and honest?

Sorry again for the (totally unintentional) annoyance.
Over and out (in more than one sense).

An affectionate (if, for the time being, really disappointed) user,
JakeBlues

@JakeBlues

best example you are wrong is Tienlee. Joined wtm only 5 months ago. I am sure he is at the moment the uploader with the most accepted shots in the last 2-3 months. No old player, just someone who have the genius to find shots which most player like. You are wrong, believe me!

About shots who you think its worth a SotD: At least i got 3 shots i was pretty sure they make SotD, only one made SotD, one of the other need a magical accept from a mod. About 2 months ago the user Pzy told me very disappointed, that his SotD candidate just go rejected. From 2 of my 3 last SotD i never thought the 2 others are getting a SotD. I waked up in the moring and was really surprised. You see you are not the only one who have sometimes a big miscalculation of other peoples taste.

And if you are disappointed about rejected shots, join us with the idea to self-push own rejected shots for XXXXX WTM Bucks. Then you still can save a shot about each 30 days, about which you think it should be urgently here in the FF :)