Efji. I am your American Uncle.
You can also call me Walt if you like. :-)

Let me put this straight.
I don't see any solutions to make everyone happy with the actual NS.

Now I'm questionning NS big time!
Again: I don't criticize the WTM team. I love what they created otherwise I would not spend time to talk about what bothers me (and most of us).

You can say: "we have to do something against unfair voters! Easy snaps get better ratings! They're something wrong with SofD ratings! etc…"

But you can't change the fact that:

- Some anonymous voters will always vote unfair.
Not because they're villains who want you to suffer but because they're simply subjective.

- The Monstruous Bot will always be unfair.
Because this thing is a creature with no brain. It's just a calculating machine.

- The Lovable Mods will always be unfair.
Because they rely on their experience, culture and good taste (which cannot be yours everytime) and because they don't want to make favours (which honours them).
They're human after all like the rest of us.

Let's talk about SUBJECTIVITY.
It's an important point.

Last year I talked with Nouvelle Vague film director Claude Chabrol (he passed away recently, may his soul RIP).
Now I challenge you to find a beautiful shot from his huge filmography!
You'll never make it to SofD with a Chabrol snap! And you'll have to go through a lot of suffering to reach FF.

So I asked him a simple question: why don't you make aesthetic shots, well-balanced shots, great shots?
Why --- you Claude, being a fan of Hawks and Hitchcock --- don't you bring some meaning into the structure of your shots?

He laughed.

He said: "I make shots from reality. That's my main inspiration.
Reality is a mess. Don't tell me a provincial lawyer office is a nice place. It is not.
I spend a lot of time to create shots who LOOK REAL".

Guys? Ladies?

He's right.

When you create a shot, you're not alone.
You have a crew making that shot.

- The director. He decides the tone of his movie. The universe he wants to show. He's the boss.
- The actors. They have to be comfortable inside their marks. So you sometimes have to adapt your shots for them.
- The cinematographer. He's creating a particular light. A meaningful light.
- The cameraman. You don't chose the hight of the camera or a lens for no reason. Each lens brings a meaning.
- The set designer. Why these wall colors? Why this particular table? Nothing is random.
- The property master. Why these glasses? Why this keychain?…
- The make-up artist, the hairdresser etc…

It's all about choices.
When a crew makes a shot, this is definitely NOT SUBJECTIVE.
It's a part of the whole. It's a piece from the puzzle. It's a --- movie.

Now.

What are we doing, here, in WTM?
We chose a tiny piece from this puzzle and we play a simple game: find the movie it is from.

And suddenly, it becomes HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE.
Because we're judging the aesthetic of the shot and/or it's easiness to solve.

Well. It seems to me it's a strange behaviour for MOVIE LOVERS!
Don't you think? Am I not making a point here?

Ultimately, there's no bad movies.
There's only movies you like and movies you don't like.
And the WTM game is about movies you know and movies you don't know.

That's it!
It's as simple as that!

So why putting movies through a subjective process bringing frustration for the one who wants to push it through?

I say this is definitely not fair for the movies!
Are we REAL movie lovers?

That's why I'm promoting a certain amount of AUs to everyone (see previous posts).
And that's why some of you suggested brilliant ideas to get those AUs.

It would end the frustration and the negativity behind all this.
And it would bring a sense of sharing.

A movie lover shows a snap from a movie he loves.
We try to solve it without judgement.

And we live happily forever.

"Ultimately, there's no bad movies"

You haven't watch "Disaster Movie" have you?

Actually the mouth-to-ear around "Disaster Movie" was efficient because people told their friends : "dude you gotta watch it, it's the worst movie ever!"
The only reason I watched it is because I've been told it was sooooo bad I had to watch it.
Haha according to the quality of our shots I'd say none of us had the DVD ^^

AUs are for losers! Winners get in the FF without magic or AUs =)

Office 911!
LOL!!! You're right!
I'm the Mayor of Loserville.

Lord Myst!
I'm teasing you.
I'm a LordMyst number one fan!

Look. I'm thinking here.
I'm just asking questions but since nobody is answering, I'm a little lost.

What am I doing here?
Low ratings bring frustration.
So I'm promoting AUs for everybody.

Does it work?

Let's see.

There's 2000 snaps to solve each month.
Say WTM has 1000 regular players.

It means you can only give one AU to each player per month: 1000 snaps.
Two AUs for, say, 500 residents: 1000 snaps.

Does it work?

I have to be honest: NO.

1. It will be FRUSTRATING to have only one or two uploads per month.
2. It will not be possible to have a regular number of snaps to solve each day.

And I bet the WTM team thought about it way before me!
Why don't you guys communicate clearly? I wouldn't brainstorm like a madman here! ;-)

So how can we EASE the frustration behind the rejecting process?
It's not about losing or winning. It's about sharing with the community and being part of it.

Lord Myst tossed some good ideas:

* for every 10 accepted snapshots, you wil get 1 AU
* you have SotD, you will get 1 AU
* you wrote 10 reviews, you will get 1 AU
* you crapped 10 Pala shouts, you will get 1 AU ;)
* you replaced 5 shots, you will get 1 AU
* you uploaded 10 title shots, you will get 1 AU
* you uploaded 25 character shots, you will get 1 AU

Fnick too:

Once you have proofed that you are able to upload acceptable shots by yourself - maybe after a certain amount of shots got accepted or you are a top 50 uploader - you get a new feature: if your three slots are free you can either do it the old way and send 3 pics to NS. Or, if you really love a specific shot, you can spend all three slots at once posting one shot directly to FF. Them slots will be blocked for 48 hours (or 2 slots for 72 hours for non-supporters).

Or buying AUs with WTM bucks!

Are they good ideas?

@Palahniuk007
"What am I doing here?
Low ratings bring frustration."

njah..even #122255 with 7.80 and min. 3 favorites is rejected..in january/february this year low rating was 5-6.5..now is 6.5-7.5..only 8+ shots get in FF..every -8 shot is magically accepted..
but I won't stop uploading my shots..I will repeat them until they become boring/annoying and get magically accepted xD

@RDPL55

Again: THERE'S NO BAD MOVIES.

Take a Pixar flick for example.
Pixar is living its Golden Age. I mean WALL-E is a major science-fiction movie.
They can make THREE Toy Stories with THREE fresh screenplays.

When I see a Pixar flick --- me, the Palahniuk you all enjoy to crap --- I CRY!

Pixar is genius.
We know RDPL55 doesn't like UP.
But he likes Teenage Caveman. Like me.

When you make a CGI movie, you have much more time to create a single shot.
You have to create millions of details to make this shot a vital part of your story.

How do you create that shot once the characters and sets I've been finalized (drawned)? (and I'm not talking about the screenplay because only the shots interest us right now).
Remember: there's no improvisation when you make animation. You don't have the actors on stage in front of a camera.

You don't have a guy with make-up to direct (which can be sometimes a pain in the ass, believe me).

- Storyboard. Drawn. Redrawn. Drawn again. This shot: is it worth it? Does it bring something to the story? Does it reveal something about this particular character? Does it participate to the rythm? Is it a downer?
- Animatic: the storyboard with camera movements. This shot: does it work? Do we need it? Is it too close-up? Is it too wide? Should it be a steady shot? Would it be better if we make a pan up? Or a pan down?
- Storyboard again. Droping scenes. Creating new shots. Creating new scenes. Droping old shots. REWRITING THE SCREENPLAY AT THE SAME TIME!
- Animatic again! This time with voice overs. Believe me: you spend a LOT OF TIME to edit over and over this bloody animatic!

Once the animatic is done, we go into production.
The basic steps are the following: modeling, animating, texturing, integrating, calibrating…

Here is a shot I create just for you (and it happens like if I'm shooting it with a real crew):

- What lens are we using? A 18 mm? 65 mm? I want a 25 mm because I need "to open the emotional space for the main character without distorting the frame".
- What's the height of the camera? Up, down, leveled? I want the camera down because I want you to see "the character had gain some power".
- What is the camera movement? Steady, travelling (lateral, front, circular?), panning (up, down, left, right?), zooming… what? I want a pan up from the flower at the feet of the character up to him because I want the audience "to understand the character has gain emotional growth: he's less a selfish guy now than in the beginning of the story".
- What's the light of the scene and therefore the shot? We're at dawn but it's a cloudy weather. The sun rays burst out from the clouds just behind the character (who's backlighted) because I want "to make this shot a key moment, a spiritual moment".
- What's the colors of the shot. Not as natural as a real life dawn. Colors have to be pale, almost faded, because I want the audience "to understand the character has maybe gained some hope but not totally. There's a sadness during this scene because he just lost his best friend."

Etc…

I can go on with the direction (animation) of the character: what he's doing and most important why is doing it?
I can go on with the sound effects, the sound design and the music.

RDPL55: I'm talking about cinema.

You can't possibly tell me a CGI snap is a bad snap.
As I can't possibly tell you a Dementia 13 snap is a bad snap.

If the vast majority uploads LOTR and POC and HP snaps with their AUs, I'm okay with that.
I'm not judging them. They're good movies after all.
We'll always have a Chrisy, an Efji or a Doooom to upload more confidential stuff.

We'll always have a RDPL55 with us!

At the end, it's all about movies.

(more later to answer Efji!).

Now.

Efji is a mind reader.
I was waiting for someone to say the word.

And this word is:

STRIKE.

Because I quietly started my own strike a week ago to see what happens.
What did I do:

1. Stopping my uploads.
2. Talking about it.
3. Stopping the quizz.
4. Talking about it.
5. Quitting my profile page.
6. And finally taking residence in this thread.

And I realized I was completely expandable.
(which is fair enough because it's my own choice).

So what's unfair?

I'm telling you what's unfair.

The WTM CREATORS don't participate to the discussion.

Here we are, talking about frustration and our love to the site and how can we contribuate to find solutions to make everyone happy.

Where's Naut? Or Tliff?
Where are they?

Say I directed a movie.
I go to a festival to show it.
But I run away from the press conference or the audience discussion!
I can't do that: I have to face the crowd!
I have to hear everything: people who loved my movie and people who didn't.

They created a site.
Good news: we love their site!
More good news: some of us are residents.
Bad news: most of us have a particular problem we'd like to discuss.
Good news: we maybe can help you guys!

Answer: THE WALL.

Now I understand they have a real life and things to do.
I respect that. I have nothing against them.

But sometimes you have to do like Rambo.

YOU HAVE TO SEND A MESSAGE.

So here's Efji who comes up with an idea (mostly because he's french): LET'S STRIKE.

I'm in for a strike (mostly because I like Profiteroles).

But before organizing a strike, we have to agree why we would strike.

WHY WOULD WE STRIKE?

1. To find a solution with the creators to ease the frustration behind the rejecting process when uploading a snap?
2. To ask more AUs? And how (knowing the overfeeding problem)?

What do we want exactly?
When you strike, your demands have to be VERY PRECISE.

Here is what I suggest:

WE WOULD STRIKE FOR:

- Buying AUs with WTM bucks.
- Getting AUs for SotD, reviews, replacing shots, uploading title and character shots… (see LordMyst ideas)
- Chosing one AU instead of uploading three snaps through NS (see Fnick idea).

It should be enough to start a discussion with the board of directors.

And I say Fnick came up with a great idea.
A one day strike on 1st of december with everybody uploading this snap: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/44762

What do you think?

@efji: you don't have to fool anyone! Go to your shelf. Get three DVDs of your favourite movies. I bet you'll find a shot similar to Asmodais in every of the movies. Upload the three shots on Dec 1st for the three movies you took them from. Everything else would be against the rules and your shots would be deleted in no time ;)

Let me know when the strike is so I can upload shots and they'll go straight to FF =)

Why dont the creators participate in this discussion? They probably have something better to do.. ;)
From the beginning the creators have been listening to users with good ideas and many have been worked out. So please stop complaining about this, the fact that you’ve got all the time in the world doesn’t mean they don’t have anything else to do.

I understand you like to complain, you’re French. But instead of this complaining please come with some real solutions. I didn’t see you give any good solution, only more AU’s. Trust me they will listen to good ideas, they wont listen just because you shout a lot.. ;)

You’ve got a problem with the selection method for shots going to FF. But you’ve got to admit that they cant let all shots go through. So there should be a selection somehow. Now this is done by letting people vote and the best voted shots go to FF. But because this doesn’t give unknown movies or ‘ugly shots’ a chance, most shots are actually selected by the mods, to give the quiz a good balance. This seems like an ok system to me, but things could always be better. The creators agree with this.

Just giving people more awesome uploads would not be a good thing imo.

Of course it can happen that someone doesn’t have any shot go through for 2 weeks. My idea to prevent this would be simple. Just show on each shot how many shots went through from that uploader that week (for example 1/5 if 1 shots out of 5 went through), like this mods could take this into account when choosing shots to push through. The same was done for the number of shots a movie has on wtm.

Then I’ve got another idea for selecting the shots to go to FF, give some of the moderator power back to the people. I think there’s too much power with the mods now, like 2/3 is chosen by them and 1/3 by the people. So my plan is giving people some tokens. You can use this tokens to push shots trough. For example when 5 people really like a shot and use a token, it will go through to FF. Like this 1/3 will go through by votes, 1/3 pushed by the users and 1/3 by mods.

@theoffice911
You'd rather upload a *yellow* frame, you social-traitor :)

Just want to correct one thing regarding my previous post:

I meant solving 300 to 500 shots before being able to access NS (not a whopping 3500... lol). Sorry if I was being unclear, Palahniuk ;)

so you don't complain but you do go on strike.. can you explain me how this is possible?
(im aware of this france tradition, but i always thought it was part of the complaining culture).

Why don't you just reupload those shots that you thought deserve to be in FF?

Anyway, please stop shouting revolt and strike for nothing and make a more contructive dialogue possible.
Just stop crying and act like a grown up, baby.

I dont really care about your feelings, nobody does..
But what does bother me is that nothing is going on in the PPZ. Now that is FRUSTRATING and UNFAIR..

tomas nailed it (once again).

The reason why I’m not actively participating in this discussion:

> my hands are bound. I do design/frontend and lack a programmer.
tliff didn’t make it public, but he stated that he won’t work on WTM any more.
Until we find somebody new, we can’t change things.

> the current system works fairly well. While there is frustration from time to
time, every player can and did get shots into FF (not just disney).
You don’t get to 100,000 quality uploads if the system would be all crap.

> I don’t want to invest a lot of time in the current NS approval system because
it’s not the future. We wrote a post about scaling a little time ago, we can’t
scale with this approach and that’s why we have ideas for a new way to post shots.

Now let my quickly comment on some of your ideas:

> hide uploader name
we already hid the rating due to overwhelming demand and I think it didn’t help much.
same goes for the name. I don’t question the existance of downvoters who have a grudge
against others, but they are in a minority. In this case the disadvantages of not showing
the name outweigh the advantages.

> no solving in NS
that’s the best idea I’ve heard in a while. It could get rid of a core NS problem:
high votes for solved shots. We have to give it some thought.

> give more AUs
AUs for title/character/sotd - probably
AUs for replacement shots - no
AUs for rejected shots - are you serious? that would be counter productive.
*Awesome* Uploads don’t have their name for chimps, giving them out
for 10 rejections opens up a hole for abuse.

> Mods have a clear access to the uploader's stats when being rejected too much
very cool idea

> Voters can themselves push a snap through with a 5 token system
ahhh, this idea is old, very old :) we had it even before there were any
moderators and discarded it because of complexity—still like the idea though

@toffetomas
It seems to me you didn't read all previous posts!

I'm like E.T.
I believe in love and friendship.

First of all, let's not talk about a strike.
Let's name the whole affair:

A DEMONSTRATION.

Fnick came up with this funny idea: to demonstrate on a particular day we'd like to see some kind of evolution in NS.

A DEMONSTRATION.
Not a mean and violent strike.
LOL!!!!! We're only talking about uploading movie snaps!
This is not about Global Warming or killing whales!

But right now we're talking about it not making it.

WHY A DEMONSTRATION ?

1. It's a quizz game. Not an uploading game.
2. No independence. Your choices are completely at the mercy of: anonymous voters, a mean bot, mods who possess good taste but cannot possibly please everyone.
3. There's no bad snaps like there's no bad movies. It's SUBJECTIVE.
4. To contribuate to the game and stay with the community you have to go through a rejection process on regular basis.
5. A rejected snap will always be unfair for the uploader, no matter the ratings.

The whole thing is about judgement.
Which brings anger and frustration.

Uploading a snap is playing at RUSSIAN ROULETTE.
Even with an Edward Scissorshands snap.
This is very RANDOM to me.

A demonstration permits to open a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion to see how we can bring some POSITIVE EMOTIONS in the actual system.

The positive emotions are:

- Sharing
- Sense Of Contribution
- Pleasure
- Feeling Integrated
- Creativity

WE'RE NOT THE CREATORS.
We're the players.

We don't criticize this great site.
We don't judge the mods.
We don't complain.

We just ask fairness to keep everyone happy.

A DEMONSTRATION IS POSITIVE.

It's about change, evolution, new ideas.
And I must say, dear Toffetomas, you came up with nice ideas.

NOW.

There's no bad ideas.
There's only FEASABLE IDEAS.

We can discuss about them.
And only the creators will know what to do --- or not.

This is not the end of the world.

@naut

Welcome aboard!

A. NEW SUBMISSIONS.

Okay let's say NS is some kind of NATURAL SELECTION.
But since you can't escape the Chaos Theory, you'll always have uploaders with unlucky streaks.

To ease the anger and frustration felt by those uploaders, you consider two ideas:

1. GIVING MODS A CLEAR ACCESS TO THE UPLOADER'S STATS
It's fair to me. Because the uploader will be confident that soon or later he'll be back on tracks.
The random aspect of NS becomes suddenly more --- human.

2.NO SOLVING IN NS
It seems a detail to me as MisterZob mentionned it: you'll have to meet the snap twice if it goes through FF.
And I'm not sure it will change the voter's rating: "oh! I know this movie! It's a 10/10 for me!".

You don't like this idea:

HIDING UPLOADER'S NAME
I didn't get your point. I think it's a good idea to clear a movie snap from the uploader's name. Rate the snap only. Without any influence of some sort.

You didn't comment this idea:

RESTRICTING NS ACCESS
- Solving XXX snaps to unlock NS.
- Uploading XXX snaps to unlock the right to vote.
It would be about "educating" the future uploader. To give him experience.


B. AWESOME UPLOADS

This is about independence with our choices.
This is also about pushing through a snap during an unluncky streak in NS, to stay in the game.

You consider this idea:

GIVING MORE AUs.
For title/character/sotd.

You didn't comment those ideas:

1. BUYING AUs WITH WTM BUCKS
What's the point to earn so much money if you can't spend it?
Read this: I love to spend my money! This is the most frustrating part of the game --- for me!
Here I am sitting on a pile of money like Scrooge McDuck!!!! Me! Palahniuk!
I want to buy stuff, trade, exchange. I want to give away my money!!!
I mean you guys came up with a great idea: the WTM bucks.
But it goes ONE WAY. You just earn money over and over.
Why can't we buy one AU for say 5000 WTM bucks? Even 10000?
In no time, you'll see me back in NS voting feverishly!

If we push this idea, we could also trade AUs.
Damn! I would buy all the AUs from pochu-ju-nick after a Vault Contest!

2. ONE AU AGAINST 3 NS SNAPS
I kinda like the idea. This is what Fnick wrote: "Once you have proofed that you are able to upload acceptable shots by yourself - maybe after a certain amount of shots got accepted or you are a top 50 uploader - you get a new feature: if your three slots are free you can either do it the old way and send 3 pics to NS. Or, if you really love a specific shot, you can spend all three slots at once posting one shot directly to FF. Them slots will be blocked for 48 hours (or 2 slots for 72 hours for non-supporters)."

Now.

I understand The Tliff Situation.
Where's Kinoute? He said he's a programmer!

No matter what, I'm very curious to hear the ideas your have "for a new way to post shots". ;-)

Cheers!

@toffetomas

You do agree on major points.
So why toffetomassing?

We all want to see some kind of evolution in NS.

1. Not an uploading game.
You don't win anything in NS.
You have to feed the game through a rejection system.
You are simply punished doing that.

2. No independence.
You ask: "why would independence be a good thing?"
Damn! I never thought about it!
We all know independence is a very bad thing. :-D

3. A snap is subjective.
The best example is The Vault.
I say all snaps are interesting. Ultimately.

Like any movie.
Say you're a Black Hole addict. Me too.
But Doooom might hate it.

So what?
It's subjective.

4. I don't mind a selection process.
But we all know selection is subjective.
That's why we should have MORE ALTERNATIVES.

5. "What's your solution?"
More alternatives. Read the previous posts, you fool!
The best alternatives so far are:

- In NS, giving mods a clear access to the uploader's stats
- Eventually restricting NS to new comers to give them opportunity to experience uploading BEFORE voting.
- Earning or winning more AUs (because it's a game AND a sharing experience).

Judgement.
You're right. When everybody praise your wonderful eXistenZ snap, you feel good.
But if this very snap doesn't make it through to FF, you'll feel bad.
The system should permit you to push one way or another your great eXistenZ snap.

Be goooooooooood.

We'll play soon.
But right now we're making a movie called JUSTICE FOR ALL.

And we need you.
We need your ideas and your insight!

A movie called Justice for all should clearly have a Metallica soundtrack. Let's make this thing.. who shall be our lead actor?

On a serious note however.. I don't think more AU's is going to work to improve the game overall.. yet the selection method could be altered. I still see merits in making NS voting only.

You could also stop whining and play the game for fun!

I agree with MrZob about the no solving in new submission, but for different reason, I already have no time anymore to go in the NS except for pushing shots through
But what bothers me is the all system of solving votes counting for 3 would fall apart, and this is one of the best system we've had, that way less known movies but still solved by a few people have a better rating than they would have otherwise and some still go on their own to FF. This would be bad ;)

Palahniuk007
i CANNOT read you anymore, your posts are way too long, if you want to make your self heard, less bla bla and more contructive criticism :)

Toffetomas
You've never watched ET ^^

Reading Naut's post again I have to agree somewhat.. the problem has to do with scaling.. more and more people get involved, upload shots.. and the same number goes through, so more people get to be dissapointed because of a rejected snap.

Oh well. I have fun while selecting shots I've discovered.. now just pray and hope they get through.

@toffetomas
Haha, in Dutch we would say: you fell ugly through the basket there...

@Palahniuk007
Naut made it clear that he can't change things at the moment, since tliff has quit the show. So I don't see the use of going on and on about this at the moment. I think we all agree that the system has faults, but there are two sides to this: the uploader's frustration and the creator's scaling problem. I think the latter should be solved first since the existence of WTM depends on it. By the way, a lot of the suggestions that I read here have been made in the "Scaling" topic some time ago.

Now let's all go to PPZ and play!!

Except we are not running a country are we, stop comparing everything to that, that's non sense :)
This is a GAME, with rules, and a system that goes with it not a nation. Your way of life dont depend on it, does it? well maybe with you a little, and your mental well being as well it seems ^^

as Toffetomas said, try again some of your shots, maybe that day we already pushed through a lot and had to make some choices, or we just didn't see them, that can happen..... or none of us liked them enough, yes sorry that also can happen.... There will never be here a system of total free will, a selection of some kind will always be needed. And many here will tell you that sometimes they try their shots a second time and it worked, so stop complaining and give us some games! You are good at that not at complaining!
:)