Today, one shot that I posted a few monthes ago, and that had been rejected with a very low rating, has been accepted when posted by another player. Quite a newbye. It was the exact same photogram.
Forget your paranoia, man :)
Talking about your Matisse stuff, I personnally think it is a very bad shot. If I were still voting I would have given it a very low rating, whoever posted it. Because: * Here we talk about "movies", not "paintings" * I hate colors * I hate impressionists * I hate naked women kissing in the fields * I hate redhead lesbians * I did not solve it
Thus, if it had been posted by MrZob I would have rated it 3, by Asmodai:2, and by yourself 1.
Just kidding, hey. You seem to be quite tense these days :)
And of course I agree with the old Pala's proposition that @winterwolf recalled above.
Sincerely thanks guys, for your comments and for lowering the pressure on me: I was sincerely starting to feel a little alone and despised, in here, because of my opinions... :)
My feeling is that I am allowed to have some shots coming from well known, mainstream, popular movies accepted (@fungus: this is how I obtained the majority of accepted shots since I started uploading), but whenever I try to post more "difficult" images from less known and/or older movies, they are almost always rejected. On the other hand, everyday, I see many "difficult" shots being accepted, either normally or magically, most of the times from a limited number of regular uploaders that seem to have a kind of special authorization for those shots. Well, I am and remain convinced that, if I (and other users of course) could have the possibility to "mix" my images from "difficult" shots amongst the others, and if all images were "protected" by hidden the uploader's names, my chances to have those "difficult" shots accepted even if not coming from the usual uploaders would be significantly higher.
Finally: no, I am not tense, it's not part of my nature (thanks for asking, Sergeant efji)... :) I just love a good discussion, but I always discuss with an ironic smile on my face, even if it might doesn't look that way when you read what I write... :)
And now, following Sergeant efji wise prescriptions, I'll put on my stereo "Stop the rock" from Apollo 440 and turn on the volume: SHAKE MY PARANOIA (or Black Sabbath's "Paranoid")! :)
P.S.: I am also in agreement with the so called Pala's proposition.
I can imagine that it's hard to give shots from moviefriends low ratings.
Maybe you can hide the name of the uploader until the shot reaches FF? Without losing the possibility to react on a shot and that the uploader and other players see the reaction and can talk back to the one who reacted in the first place. The uploader only on the account of the other players. Then he/she is the only one who can't leave a reaction under his own snapshot.
And once the shot is in FF you can see the name and rating of the uploader/shot.
I don't experience it as a very big deal, but if there are people who do think it's a problem, why ignore it? I don't see much harm in the way that I just described and maybe things are more honest that way.
I really did't read all of the posts here, and I usually don't post stuff on forums and sort, so don't crucify me if I missed the topic. I've simply decided to post here since one of the members enlightened me by discovering me this topic (thanks good sir, now I can finally share my opinion :)).
So here it goes... Yes, while I started in here there was so much more fun. Yes, the snapshots in general received higher rankings. Yes, the really cool shots got even better rankings, and yes, something has changed. And not to better.
Fact is you can hardly post a shot that will have ranking higher than 7, while earlier the shot below 7.30 couldn't get to FF.
What has changed? Have we depleted all of the shots? I say - no, there is so much movies with such awesome shots that can (and are getting) uploaded on daily bases.
Well, my opinion is that the people changed. a.) in my experience the shot with less than 10 solves gets crapy ranking, 6.6 would be an average I would say. b.) people are greedy and spoiled and even bastards. Why? All, and I mean ALL of my shots which get to, or near, the 24 hours left limit suddenly collapse in ranking going from 7.6 to 7.1 in just few hours. All those people that got offended on this - you are very welcome.
What does all of this mean? People don't care about the shots, about the moment in the movie in which the shot has been taken, they only care their shots get uploaded, and will resort to cheap tricks to lower someones rating in order to kill the competition.
"near, the 24 hours left limit suddenly collapse in ranking"
Maybe I'm a little bit naive, but i saw this on my snapshots too, and I've just think that some users only rate the pictures when they come under 24 hours (why not ?) and maybe this group of people tends to rate lower than the others (without any particular reason but a different rate scale).
Exactly. This "24h drop" has always been there. It affects every shot and always had. Reason is uncertain but is most likely what yhi said, or actually just the other way around: early voters rate higher than random users, because they're hardcore WTM enthusiasts.
I agree to the above analyze about the 24h drop. Same with my shots.
About the global drop in rankings, I think the cause is the "rate with the full range 1-10" advice of the mods, more than the hiding of the score. It is not a problem if it is consistent for all players.
"shot with less than 10 solves gets crapy ranking": not true. Many recent sotd have few solvers. Yesterday only one solver. Some days ago 0 solvers.
Globaly I love the new system where the score is hidden and the poster and number of solves are displayed.
"About the global drop in rankings, I think the cause is the "rate with the full range 1-10" advice of the mods, more than the hiding of the score. It is not a problem if it is consistent for all players."
Yeah, totally. The mods have now a lot of features to spot unfair voting and to handle multiple accounts and other way of cheating regarding the upload process. Before, players were basically giving away 10's to their fellows every time etc, now it's different and I really think people vote more fairly than before. Maybe I am naive but eh? We still have the fight between b&w lovers & CGI lovers but I'm not sure we can do something about this though. So I'm annoyed when I read this kind of messages comparing the ratings of old shots and new shots: the amount of shots pushed by Scruffy & the mods every day is still the same and its been like that for years. If the average rating drops by 1 or 1.5 for every shot, what's the problem? Around 50 shots will be pushed anyway per day and the best shot will be SotD, nothing changes. The last SotD has a rating of 7,63/10, if you had this back in school, was it THAT bad?
I like the new system too, the only think I am concerned about is the rating of our own shots. So many people complaining ("thanks but the actual rating is 6.66, no chance *insert whining sentence about the vote system here*") than I am that close to hide it too before the SotD. By the way, the ratings are hidden for everybody except you so no need to tell everybody what's the actual rating of your shot, it's kind of annoying... (if you wish people will change their votes I mean).
@kinoute "So many people complaining ("thanks but the actual rating is 6.66, no chance *insert whining sentence about the vote system here*") than I am that close to hide it too before the SotD" And when you do, people will still complain when they'll be able to see the rating/when their shot gets rejected. "Whiners gonna whine" they say, and though I understand that it can be irritating if you gotta read them all, is it really harming the game in any way ?
Well yes it does. Basically giving away ratings can lead to many different situations which make things worst IMO:
- First, you give away the rating of your shots to other players when we made adjustments to improve the fairness of the voting process by hiding the ratings to other players. It can lead to:
- People read your shout on your shot, they don't care, end of story before 3); - People read your shout, get pissed off by your whining shouts over & over again, kill the rating of your shot (human nature at its best) ; - People read your shout, they liked your shot so they change their vote to support you and increase the rating (which is wrong and can be assimilated as cheating since you gave away the rating, see 1.)
So yes, for me it does make things worst for everybody. The ratings should stay hidden and known by only you during the SotD process.
Oh and I could add that giving away the rating of your shots can be good (see 4.) but can be bad too (see 2.). A malicious player can adjust his vote on your shot if he compares the rating to his shots in order to have more chance to get in the FF. And I'm pretty sure I could give you many possible scenarios like that.
Well I'm certainly a bit naive then, I imagined it would be more like 90% do nothing. I can see your point though and I had not thought of these scenarios. Maybe you could ask people not to give away their rating for starters
Anti cheating proposition. Can this be done: Voting system like in some sports(e.g. ski jumping)? I don't know, maybe to exclude two lowest and two highest votes.
Mmm, thinking about hiding the rating of our own shots? In other words (and in my opinion, of course!), you keep thinking about hiding various informations, but not THE ONE the would really make the difference and make the rating process fair (which obviously would be to hide the uploader's names until SotD are chosen)... :) Any chances of reconsidering this essential upgrade in the system???
By the way, because of the actual unfair rating system, I am one of the users who frequently complains. I never thought that giving away the average rating of one of my shots while it's in the New Submission could change the way people rate it, one way or the other (and I still don't think so). But I now recognize that, because that information is hidden by the system (not that it makes any different, always in my opinion), I will respect the rules and I will not give away any rating of my images before they become visible.
I again must repeat, the mechanism of grading shots on this site is wrong. And as much as some people claimed - objective, well it isn't, it is subjective as fu.. and people do rank by whether they know the movie or not. Of course, I wouldn't want to generalize and claim everyone does it.
@efji on ""shot with less than 10 solves gets crapy ranking": not true. Many recent sotd have few solvers. Yesterday only one solver. Some days ago 0 solvers." I really can't agree on this one. I did sort of research few times already and here is what I concluded: 1. If a person (again don't want to generalize) knows the movie, the grade will be higher 2. If vice versa, the rank goes lower. 3. Good thing you mentioned SoTD - yes, some SoTD's have low solve number and they are SoTD's. But this is what makes them SoTD - they are awesome, and they won't get many low grades. Example would be #282266 (don't get me wrong, I don't want to glorify my shots, simply don't want to include someone else in this by posting his/her shot) - this shot really deserves at least 7+. So, what did I try to do while uploading shots. Few times already I uploaded one shot that is of lower quality (taken in JPEG, from lower quality DVD, etc) but from a movie which is known to everyone and which had tons of solves. On the other hand I took a shot from not that well known movie, and in high quality. And guess which one had higher grade every time?? Yes - the well known one. One example would be: #289482 and #287754 #289482 had 200+ solves and a ranking of 7 or 7+ when accepted (it is below 7 now, but I'm speaking about time when the shot is accepted). Oh yes, it had much more votes, which means if you devide ranking (7 or 7+) with number of people that voted you will get higher value per vote. #287754 had, if I recall, 1 or 2 solves when accepted and ranking below 7! (it is above 7 now). Of course, lower value per vote. Come on, do you really think that Sly and Kurt are so much better?? I wouldn't say so...
And to go back on topic of Magically accepted shots... I post regulary, and in most cases after one upload slot is free I will upload a new shot in matter of 1 hour. Do you know how many Magically accepted shots I had in last 2-3 months? Only 4. I've taken time and checked on how much Magical shots some people had. One example (no names again): 8 shots in last month! Out of 20 that were accepted in total. This is almost 50% of that player's shots being accepted Magically. And no, it isn't just a case of last month. If you scroll the profile of that person you will see this repeats, sometimes in lesser number, but it does.
You "really don't agree" but you don't look at facts. Here are the number of solves for each Sotd of last month. 1/4 have (now) less than 10 solvers. And only 4 can be considered as quite easy shots (above 100 solves):
the things are maybe strange, maybe not always fair, but definitly not easy to make better
2 facts you should think about:
1.) the game ist not only uploading, there is solving too. If you look at some movies like Star Wars there about 1000-2000 solvers of this shots. There are some less movie addicts (about 20 players) solving more than 40-50% of the shots and a big crowd (more than 1000 people) is not able to solve 10% of the FF shots. You need a stash of shots, which the movie addicts find lots of nice/unknown shots, and you need at least a couple of shots, which are easy to solve, to not frustrate casual gamers. So your "boring" sly shot will at least make some people happy, just cause they found something they can solve.
2.) Back to ratings. The ratings you gain on well known movies and unknown movies are very different.
First you have to think: movies like Star Wars, PotC, LotR etc. got already about 50-150 shots already here, its hard to find really great not uploaded shots. How the chances to find a SotD able shot in a movie with more than 100 shots already in? Yes very hard. And yes after 50-100 already shots the chances increase to have only more or less boring shots left. In totally unknown movies with 0-5 uploads its quite easier to find really nice shots, but to catch a SotD etc. you need to watch often 50-100 unknown movies to find a winner shot.
Movie Addicts are often bored of easy PotC, LotR, Star Wars Shots. I can see this very often, if i upload an easy shot. After 10 votes (i think most early voters are movie addicts) the shot have a rating about 5,x or very low 6,x. Time by time the rating increase and increase more, ends most at 6,6 to 7,6. Because of the movie addicts low votes the shot of very well known movies will almost never gain a rating higher than 8. Next fact is, that well known movies got about 20-25 votes more as unknown movies. My theory: some casual player pick in NS just the shots they can solve, also easy ones, and rate only this shots. So at the end you get with a well known movie shot, even its a boring one a high 6,x or a low 7,x rating.
Unknown movies its totally converse. At begin the shots starts often after upload with a 9,x after 3-4 votes. After 10 votes still 8,0 or 8,5, sometimes 7,5. But how longer the timer runs, the average rating go down and down. Sometimes the shots end with a 5,x or with luck you get a high 7,x. My Theory: the movie addicts vote mostly high, the casual player which vote not only solved shots, kill then the good rating until the shots runs to 23h and at some less really nice shots, they vote also high. But not often!
summary: rating of nice unknown shots starts high, rating lowers after 10-15 high votes with almost every more vote. Well known shots starts usually very low and the average rating increases by almost every new vote after 10-15 votes. In fact of tons of already uploaded shots and in fact of hundreds of casual players, its good to have still some easy (maybe boring) shots with a rating about 6,6 to 7,6. Unknown shots you can get rarely ratings about 7,7 to 8,3, but in average you will have many low rated shots with 5,x and low 6,x too.
Its easier in average to get a shot from an well known movie through, but its harder to make a SotD with this kind of shots (except its a new released block buster, then in fact of free choice you got an over average change for SotDs). Still remember the casual player, who are happy to solve about 5-10% of all shots (to say the truth, if i only be able to solve only 1/2 of 20 shots (=5%/10%), i think i quit this game instantly, if i will see 60 shots and just able to solve 3-6 of them). So i think its ok to have better chances to get a SotD as compensation of more rejected shots in total of unknown shots to have balance in the uploader section and the balance of solving (addicts and casual player) is too existent.
So in the end i think the upload/solve mechanism is at the moment not bad. Surely not perfect of course, improvement suggestions made already many at the WTM 2.7 Brainstorming discussion, maybe we see some of them soon. The tricky thing is, you can make with wrong decisions the balance also more worse...
@Winterwolf : I think you just nailed it. I observe the same patterns and completely agree with everything you said. I just might add, that for SotD it's not all about the rating but also about the favs. So few players can tip the result here, which also may help the movies with less votes,as the numbers of @efji show.
@Efji - I see what you want to say, but no offence, this is what I said in my post - SotD is an awesome shot, and it is really hard (at least to me) to give a low grade to a shot that is exquisite. The way things are going we will have a situation in which the shots would be either lower than 7 or 7.7+. Everything in the middle would be lost.
@Winterwolf - I would absolutely agree with everything you said, in my understanding of your post. This is exactly what I wanted to say, but in a different way. The human factor is what creates a problem here. Nothing else. But this can't be avoided, and I'm not saying I'm not like that.
One of examples for that would be solving shots merely for it looks. You can't judge anyone for that though, and it is perfectly normal. I myself try to rank shots by situation as well as its looks, of course I can't do it in high precentage of cases. What I mean by that, I also really often try to take the shot which not only looks good, but which fits to some situation and can make the shot awesome for someone who has seen that movie and knows and understands the "weight" of that shot.
Another example of human factor is the Magically accepted shot, which no one commented after my post. :) I'm not 100% sure about the mechanism how it works, but as far as I found on the forum - moderators accept shots based on looks. And no one can asure me that this isn't subjective or "helpful" to some players.
Cheers!
P.S. Yes, I understand it is hard (better say imposible) to create the grading mechanism which would be 100% fair and in which everyone would be happy. I've didn't post anything in here because I would like creators of the site to change something, etc. I simply wanted to share my thoughts. It is my decision to accept the rules or not. At the moment i will be really anoyed with this - I'll simply leave.
the human factor (you say creates a problem) is exactly what makes WTM unique. it does not create problems, it's the basis for the archive, the FF and the NS. each and every player has a different opinion and/or taste for shots respectively, otherwise every shot could be rated 10 or 1 or just flat 5...! this would not make any sense and would be boring. an essential improvement would be to get more people to vote in order to receive a more useful and reliable average. and if a shot gets rejected everybody can feel free to upload again after a few weeks and try again. a rejected shot can even be promoted to SotD (has happened already...!). sometimes you get a shot accepted with a rating of 6.7 and sometimes you get another shot rejected at 7.2 always depending on number of votes, rates of all the other shots in NS within the 24h period, how many people are online and voting and of course were able to solve your shot and the other shots in NS. so, in order to keep it simple that's life or better - that is part of the game.
as you have mentioned that nobody has been commenting on the magic, I think that's because it's off-topic in this thread. the main issue of this forum was and I think still is whether to hide "everything" until SotD is chosen or not (or at least partially, what has happened already by hiding the average rate of the shots) in order to avoid cheating! the Mods check the shots in NS on a regularly basis and push shots they personally like into FF when the remaining time is declining before those shots eventually would be rejected because of a low rate. this is definitely the human factor and tastes differ for sure (of course among the Mods as well) but it's better than nothing. so you really have the chance to get a shot through at a low rate, and yes, the Mods opinion is bound to be subjective. they are human...! but not helping any player! you had some 77 magically accepted shots of your total 258 FF shots for example, I had 82 magically accepted shots out of the same number of shots (what is approximately 3 out of 10 shots magically accepted for both of us); I did not take the time to analyze other players profiles but I think this will be a fair and reliable value over the course of time for any other player (I also had a drought period in the first few months of the year where I could not feel much of the magic in here)...! ;-))
and as I said before, it's a game, this should be fun, this is how it works and nothing in life is perfect or 100% fair...! as a matter of fact this should not annoy anybody.
Shots that are magically accepted are picked by 2 human beings. Therefore it will always be subjective. But those shots are not selected only according to how they look. Far from it.
What mods are trying to do, when approving shots, is: - to get some kind of a balance between easy shots and tough shots, between blockbusters and confidential movies, between eye candy and meaningful/relevant shots, ... - to mix genres, eras, ... - to help those unfortunate shots that were so close to make it (rating pretty close to the ones that got accepted, but unfortunate enough to always be #2 every time Scruffy came to approve a shot) - to help those movies that have so few shots in the Archive for now - ...
The whole idea is that WTM remains an enjoyable quiz (not too easy, not to tough), offering shots from all kinds of movies (recent/old, famous/unknown, good/bad, ...).
But don't expect too much from mods. Despite the magic Scruffy talks about, we’re no wizards.
First, don't forget mods are just regular users when it comes to solving. Of course, for mods as for regular users, solving affects rating/approving. It’s pretty natural. How can you assess how relevant a shot is if you don’t know what movie it is from? You guys should really think about that when you pick a shot to upload it in NS, especially if you’re planning on uploading a shot from a confidential movie. Basically, ask yourself: What would I think of this shot if I hadn’t seen the movie? And if I have seen the movie, would it be memorable enough for me to remember? Of course, and I know some of you do that, you can always expect some mod to have seen it (maybe he’s even already uploaded shots from it) and count on him to “get” your shot and save it because it’s sooo important in that movie. But again, there’s no guarantee it’ll get magically approved anyway, because of all the other criteria listed above… And when a shot of yours isn't saved by us mods, it could just be because of bad timing (again, based on the criteria above). So you might want to try it another time (but don’t forget to wait for at least 2 weeks to do that).
@MrZob You point out the timing aspect of the mods pushing. I noticed that there are roughly two series of magic per day, probably done by 2 different mods having different tastes. The first one occurs in the morning and the second one in the late evening. Since they push a majority of shots having only a few hours left in NS (and that's fair), it is not a good idea to upload a shot just before the magic wave, because it will be too young for the first mod and, already timed out when the second mod comes.
This timing aspect can also play for scruffy: since it selects one shot per hour, you have more chance to pass through if you upload your shot when everybody is sleeping, than during the uploading peak.
There are indeed major waves, but there are also shots where I keep an eye on it during the day, to see if it will make it on its own or if I have to push, so that is not a reason..
of course the number of favs helps unknown shots, a fav give you a single 10 rating. If you you have much triple votes from people solved the shot, its a penalty if your well known shot is versus an unknown shot with also much favs.
But in the end a shot of a well known movie get a better rating in average, this will equal this. I see often unknown shots with much favs go rejected, like this one: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/288249 This happen never to a Star Wars, LotR etc. that a shot go rejected with 5 favs, or i just never noticed that?
@motika
very sad you want leave :( i know your not the first and not the last who is annoyed about the running system. I know more than 10 german players leaves the game just because the system. I am not that worried at all, but in some facts its really annoying at the moment. The most annoying thing is, there are for some bad facts good improvements possible, which almost all people will like. But the mods discuss, discuss and discuss... i fear we all die before the discuss comes to an end ;-) But maybe you want read the last 20-30 comments "WTM 2.7 Brainstorming" and think about a solution, to solve the thing which you annoy or add a short comment which ideas of other people you like or not... every comment will maybe help to make WTM better!
A fav counts 3x10 for the SotD choice, and then has a great influence. And more influence if there are few voters.
A fav counts nothing for being accepted in FF. You can be rejected with 10 favs if your rating is low.
It is quite a paradox. Imagine a shot having a too low rating to make it, but with many many favs. It could have been SotD if it had passed through, but it is rejected...
The SotD is calculated by a formula where (amongst other things, such as rating) a favorite counts for a certain amount of 10's. This formula was designed by tliff and naut after much testing. The exact formula is kept secret (I don't even know it) to not encourage any cheating.
Crap, I have just spent 1 hour writting a reply to everyone and mistakenly clicked on http://whatthemovie.com/shot/288249 from @Winterwolf shot, and all went to wind. Could be that the shot got rejected since it is a troublemaker ;)
Anyhow, I did write a reply to everyone, but I don't have more time to retype it again, so you will excuse my short answer which follows...
@Vicade17 - I unfortunately don't know how to check how much magical shots someone had... What I checked was merely by counting the shouts, you can imagine how much this takes. So since I can't verify and have facts as you do, I wouldn't want to enter any kind of discussion. But what I noted is that some people have really high number of such shots.
I also tend not to rank all shots, but only the ones that are really cool, or ones that really are of low quality. ANd I do it just because I don't want to ruin someones shot and effort. And pls, I do understand that this isn't the best way and if everyone would do the same the site could shut down in matter of weeks. So please don't criticise me on that :)
@MisterZob - "How can you assess how relevant a shot is if you don’t know what movie it is from?" - if you double.-check my post, you'll see that I stated that this is perfectly normal and that I understand it. So I really don't judge it, and this is not something that annoys me. What annoys me is that more than 70% of my shots have drop in ranking after they reach the 28-30 hour limit. And I'm speaking about for example 3 votes that make my shot (which had 25+ votes until then btw) drop from 7.56 to 7.10 (of course don't take this as granted, sometimes the drop is from 7.2 to 7.05). And this is a fact. You can't assure me in something else since I look at such situations on daily bases. And this is where the human factor steps in, someone could want to make his/hers shot more competitive, etc.
@Winterwolf - I fully agree with you, shots like one you posted (I won't be checking it again :D) often get rejected. Which is weird to me as well, and I would like to hear from @Asmodai or @Efji (or whoever is the mod) their opinion? Regarding leaving, thanks.. The thing is that I upload only since I love to catch important moments in movies (or simply beautiful ones) and post them. I don't solve (one of reasons is the one I mentioned above) - and situations like the ones described discourage me, and basically create the negative feeling in me. That is why I mentioned leaving in the moment that posting will cause me more negative feelings than positive ones. :) I'm not the guy that engages forums usually, but yes, I'll try to read the topic in my free time. Thanks!
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/288249 i not uploaded this shot, i just remember a friend uploaded this shot recently and it will be ne a nice example. Sure there are some better... i know a shot with 11 favs gone rejected... but i not wanted to search for hours for an really good example ;)
And i am only a troublemaker if something went terrible wrong :) You hear for months or years nothing from me, if everything is fine, or all do his/her best. I just hate injustice, laziness and nepotism. I have a big sense of justice, but maybe a bit too much of it :(
@Motika I'm not mod at all. Thanks god :) And I experience exactly the same drop in rating as you, after about 24h in NS.
@Winterwolf 11 favs and it got rejected? Damned! Those 11 players are to blame. If they all had voted 10 (which is fair enough if you favourite a shot) it would not have been rejected. And for sure the poster should resubmit it.
i think not every player favorite a shot is able to solve it, or much worse is to lazy to vote on it. Finally 2 years ago there are more players here, the amount of players decrease more and more (the mods noticed it already? maybe worth to think about it^^)... so 11 votes vs. 100 at all, thats possible if there are some very low voter like "ehm not again a potc shot" etc.
@efji You pointed out something quite common (and rather odd, if you ask me): some users come to NS, fav' shots, but don't rate them. Well, this is useless (as for getting a shot accepted, I mean).
@Motika My whole previous post was in response to your questioning about how the magically approved shots are selected. Including the part about not being able to understand how relevant a shot is, if you haven't seen/guessed the movie.
The drop in ratings has been commented several times already. It basically affects everybody's shots. At least it has always affected mine too. And the conclusion you seem to jump to may not be accurate at all.
As for why shots like 288249 are "often rejected", I don't know. But why should they be accepted? Because you think they look great? Obviously part of the community thinks quite the opposite. Shots unlike 288249 are often rejected too. And I assume you don't mind because you don't care about those.
There is no such thing as shots that *must* be in FF. Or maybe there is a few, but those shots make it without magic.
And again: Just because it was rejected once, doesn't mean your shot can't be accepted later. Hell it can even be SotD! Sometimes that's all it takes: a few weeks later, some other users have watched that movie and now realize how great this shot is.
@Winterwolf - I fully agree with you, can't tolerate same things as well. Which is one of the reasons I decided to join this post :)
@Efji - hehe I thought you are mod as well. In this case you are "only" one of experienced players in here ;)
@MisterZob - Regarding magical shots - I understand you wanted to explain it ot me (and I appreciate it), but I have my opinion on it, which I can't make a proof of, so I think it would be senseless to comment on it from my side. About viewing shots by the situation they are captured, it seems two of us are lost in translation. :) I think we basically have the same opinion about it, just each of us interpreted it on his own way.
Edit: I would appreciate if mods would comment. As I said, regarding the drop of ranking of shots, I very often check on shots at that period. And often I can see a situation in which the rating drops significantly after 2-3 votes. Which brings me to a conclusion that someone gave poor rating to my shot. I mean none of explanations I've heard doesn't prove different. If shot has 7.5 it can't get to 7.1 in just 2 votes just like that, there must be some poor rating that did it. Did any of mods ever tried to check what is going on? For example check if there is some pattern of users giving poor ratings? It is simple to check. Regarding that I have a suggestion and will share it as soon as I will have time on post as @Winterwolf suggested.
Yes, we checked. There's no pattern. And the lowest ratings often come from people who don't upload shots. So there's obviously no calculation about helping their own shots to get through.
"rating drops significantly after 2-3 votes" yes. And sometimes they go up significantly too. That's just maths! If you have few votes, the variation caused by a new vote is more significant.
More users would probably make the drop seem to happen slower (as each vote would have less immediate influence). But it would actually not stop ratings from dropping (there's no reason why new users would rate differently than the current ones). This phenomenon occured just the same way when we had more active users. And it makes sense. As efji wrote: the fewer votes you have, the more influence the next vote will have. Which means early votes are *not* representative at all of what the overall rating will be dozens of hours later. And early votes are usually higher than the overall, "final" rating. Why? Because early votes are made by constantly online WTM enthusiasts and, mostly, by users who upload shots on a regular basis. And those people tend to rate higher than users who only come once a day, just to rate and solve shots. The only exception has been exposed by Winterwolf: those same enthusiastic uploaders tend to rate low easy shots from blockbusters. In this case, the rating starts low and then increases.
The more I read about this, the more I think kinoute's suggestion (in the WTM 2.7 Brainstorming thread) might be a good idea. He's suggesting to hide the ratings of your own uploads until SotD is chosen. I would have suggested to hide it for 24hrs, so that the ratings become significant enough. But hiding them until SotD is chosen will help prevent uploaders from being paranoid about tactical voting.
@MisterZob - depends, hiding ratings of your own upload wouldn't do any difference for me. I don't care whether my shot will get to SoTD or not. But some other players might find this helpful if they would like their shots to become Sotd..
Another exception: boob shots :) They usually increase their rating with time. Don't know why...
Personnally I don't care if some players are paranoid. I like to watch my rating go up and down and I like to know if a shot is likely to be accepted after about 24h or will be rejected.
@Motika Yesterday you wrote that you were annoyed by a drop in your shots’ ratings, when they reach the 28-30h limit. You suspected tactical voting (other uploaders trying to make their shots more competitive) and asked for mods to check. I answered that we *did* check (and we still do). And it’s no tactical voting, it’s a natural phenomenon due to rating not being relevant before the shot collected enough votes. That’s why it would make sense to hide this rating for at least 24hrs, so that the rating, when we see it, will be more relevant. Hiding it until SotD is chosen is another solution: since users wouldn’t know any ratings of the current NS and recently accepted shots, it would be more complicated to even try to rate shots unfairly. Or at least it would make tactical voting more obvious for us mods. Because we do monitor this. And since tactical voting has always been prohibited, we’ve been doing it for a long time.
i think people are not that paranoid as you want believe us...
i ask kinoute 4-5 times about very strange (ofc not the usual jumps at first votes or time between 24-30h) i mean really strange things and he told me he found 2 unfair voters and make a comment in mod forum. I have no help to find them, because having no tools like mods, but it seems often i am at least not always paranoid^^
another example i wanted kinoute ask next time somehow: a shot there is something really strange, but less than 23h left (and an older example, he is on my list for a long time): http://whatthemovie.com/shot/291009http://whatthemovie.com/shot/262078 now the price question, which well known uploader given me tactical low votes and get some minutes/hours later his shot(s) in FF? :P hm maybe 5-15 last voters on the shots, you will find him fast i am pretty sure
I didn't say there never was any tactical voting at all. Of course there was. And people got banned for it. And we still monitor this, as much as we can.
About your 2 shots, I see what you mean. There might be some sneaky, suspicious behavior here. Or it could just be that he didn't like those shots. We'll keep an eye on it anyway.
But for moderation purposes, please contact mods on their profiles, not on the forum.
as you can read at my last post, i usually contact kinoute (at wtm chat) and i do again next in this way. I just made here an example to say not every cry about the ratings are just paranoid as you want believe us.