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Nice!
Another thread (the "small mistakes" is nice too) where fly's asses have to be careful (I don't know if there is such an expression in english, but the french speaking WTMers will understand me). Nothing better to discuss guys ?
From the two dupes you exhibit, I draw one important comclusion: in one year, the audience of WTM have grown of a factor 2 (or twice as many players are able to solve an easy "little miss" shot). Interesting enough to tolerate the dupes that have passed the NS purgatory and stop endless discussions about them :) -
Asmodai, since you're not pointing fingers, I'll answer anyway. ;)
I'm talking about the B&W dupe, BTW. Because if, you read closely, I never asked for the original green-stuff dupe to be deleted. But it does need an update, if you ask me.
About the old lady:
1. I really find it silly to have those two shots on the same day. There's only 30 other shots between them. And this movie has actually only 3 FF/Archive shots... and 2 of them just look the same.
2. They were posted when there was absolutely no means for the 2nd uploader to know what the 1st had just uploaded, a few hours ago. Otherwise, I would go for the usual "1st posted wins" rule. But we're talking prehistoric WTM here. ;)
3. 1st uploader is not on WTM anymore. 2nd one is still among us.
4. The 2nd shot is more relevant, story wise. You'll have to trust me on this one. ;) This lady only appears during that (short) scene. And it's all about her cigarette.
Now, I'm not telling you mods what to do. I'm just presenting facts you might not be aware of.
Then the final choice is yours:
If you do nothing, well... I just won't understand it. And I guess new users that go through the Archive or on this movie page might end up a little puzzled too.
If you delete the 2nd shot, fine. At least the movie page and the 10-12-2008 page will both look OK. I guess bap2008 might get a little surprised though.
If you delete the 1st shot, the Archives will get cleaner just the same way and I'm pretty sure no active user will ask any question. -
@Asmodai and Efji: I'm not at all criticising the green thingy's first shot and I'm not trying to start a discussion about the two shots (quality, rating) whatsoever. Sorry for the ones that feel attacked by my post, that wasnt my meaning. Obviously the first shot was good enough to be in the FF! And with the better quality DVDs shots can only get better. Not being a fly's ass :)
I'm just confused, thats all: I don't know where the 'line' is drawn I know several shots that were deleted for the reason of being a dupe and I just like to know what the rule is for that.
Again, I wasnt suggesting the either one of the greenthingy's shot should be deleted. I was just asking for clarification! -
@energ : the line is about as gray and blurred as it can be :) It is almost always a judgment call.
In borderline cases if you are not sure, ask a moderator, and we can get all confused and indecisive on your behalf :)) I would generally err on the side of caution, especially with archive shots.
That being said, I'm with MisterZob on those B&W shots. Way too similar and his logic on choosing which one to blast is pretty solid. They were posted same day in the old system, so I don't think you could really call either the "first". -
My remark wasn't (just) meant for the green stuff, or Zob's b/w lady, but in general ;)
The rule is that when you really think it's a dupe you add a delete vote and a spoilered shout to the original shot. If people agree with you, it gets deleted, if they don't, it stays. I myself don't like to delete shots myself, but prefer to let the normal delete votes handle it. If the mods don't agree with a deletion, they can always put it back into FF. -
DBrK uploaded an end title shot for Dune which was already in the database:
see #77545 http://whatthemovie.com/shot/77545 title shot by DBrK
and #70740 http://whatthemovie.com/shot/70740 FF shot by Kajzer
Since Kajzer's shot was first, I think the end title shot is a dupe and should be deleted. -
I agree. And then Kajzer's shot should be assigned.
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This one: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/87464 is a dupe of http://whatthemovie.com/shot/85362 right? :)
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yes ;)
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CommentAuthorPalahniuk007
- CommentTimeJun 12th 2010
I don't agree. If the shot is that good I'd rather have it twice. -
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This one: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/88852
is a dupe of mine: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/87275
Right? -
This one: http://whatthemovie.com/shot/37702
is a dupe if this one http://whatthemovie.com/shot/19555
Right?
I know that they are both in Archive/Vault but... -
Yep, the Vault shot should have been deleted.
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http://whatthemovie.com/shot/88373
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/66171
someone deleted the votes
I still think its a dupe
its a different angle but its the same scene -
this shot is a dupe if i'm not mistaken.
#88211
the shout explains with which one it is a dupe. -
you're right LordMyst. I first had stashed one of them for the sidequest, and then it was reposted and made it. One of them should be removed.
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Yes. Not mine. I was first.
:-) -
This potential dupe was spotted immediately (see shouts below, you even shouted yourself, sati, a month ago).
So why bring this up again now ?
I don't know if this should have been deleted or not, but since it was already discussed and obviously not deleted, I say we let this the way it is. -
because I assumed it was deleted already and I was checking if I didnt get new comments on review and I see this O_O
Ok that's good, because from now on whenever someone says it's a dupe and I won't agree this will be my example, because if that is not a dupe, them damn almost anything isn't :) -
@sati
I have already used this shot as an example why one of my shots can't be considered a dupe. ;) -
see, useful!
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- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010 edited
for a while a shot from me was deleted because it was a dupe (kung fu panda, shot already here: 22365)
But the shot already here was only the same scene with different things on it, and between my scene and the shot already here the turtle and Shifu (my scene is when shifu entering the tree) talk in an another scene about 30 seconds and then the scene switch back to the same angle.
I have no problem if the people (incl. Chrisy) votet for dupe, when it is for all people the same. But i think its not fair if shots like Sati posted 2 days ago, or this 3 scenes are in about 5-6 seconds: 19843, 88010, 101233 could stay here and there is absoluty nothing new or different on it. Something went wrong here... -
You are actually right Winterwolf, that is a bit weird, I will never vote for dupe unless it's exactly the same shot. But the lighting on the shots are really different, maybe that is the reason.
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@Winterwolf can you give us a link with your deleted picture, imageshack or smth?
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@Winterwolf
The 3 shots you brought up are interesting... Why? Because, having not seen this movie, I actually had no clue that 19843 and 88010 (or 101233) came from the same movie. Which means that, in *my* opinion, there are different enough. I can understand now that 101233 is indeed not really far from 88010... But, once again, if you hadn't posted this, I wouldn't have solved them. And IMHO, that's why they weren't spotted as dupes. -
- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010
@rulo
need to find the password for my free webspace acc, post it next days.
@misterzob
i disagree, i instant knowed there is an another shot already here as i seen the 2nd shot. And solved it, because i found the 1st one. And then i remembered i have already seen the movie long time ago.
And my shot is not so recognizable like this example. But you can see it next yourself. -
@winterwolf http://imageshack.us/ you can upload your picture:)
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@Winterwolf
There's nothing to agree or disagree with. I'm telling you I didn't make the connection between any of those shots. That's a fact.
And if it didn't work for me, it's likely it didn't work for other people.
Plus you're saying you've seen this movie a long time ago. Well, that's how memory works: you don't understand why, but shot #2 reminds you of shot #1, then you search in WTM Archive and then you solve it. I've solved hundreds of shots this way. It doesn't need to be a "possibly dupe" to think of a previous shot that'll help you solve the movie.
And I'm telling you again: for people who haven't seen the movie, I think it's not that obvious at all.
Bottom line is: "dupe" is not a science.
Many times, I've seen in FF shots I refrained myself from uploading, thinking they were dupes. Obviously, WTM users didn't think the same way...
Other example: the #88171 + #91518 sati brought up, I thought they were dupes too. But reading the shouts, I understood why people didn't think that way. And when I'm not sure, I'd rather not vote.
I understand users getting pissed when one of their shots is deleted for being a dupe, when it's actually not obvious at all. But if you think it's not, just explain why. If it makes sense, people will most likely not delete it. -
- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010 edited
my shot, which was deleted (was already in the FF through rating) Runtime at the shot: 40:54
http://www.bilder-speicher.de/10080822939423.gratis-foto-hosting-page.html
there a lots of different scenes, most time you see the turtle or the shifu from the near, here for example:
http://www.bilder-speicher.de/10080822458780.gratis-foto-hosting-page.html
and here the shot already here: Runtime in the movie: 44:04. Thats more than 3 minutes later. The turtle is on my shot, on this shot he is not to see. The Shifu is on my shot from the back to see, on the shot already here from the side. And the leaves of the tree is away. And the fog/stones are not the same too. The shot is not so recognizable as the more similar shots of the woman in the crater!
http://www.bilder-speicher.de/10080822230648.gratis-foto-hosting-page.html
@MisterZob
i have no problem if someone say all shots are no dupes or all shots are dupes. But if someone say my shot should be a dupe and the others are no dupe (and they are only some seconds between the shots and they are more similar) that cant be right. I want my shot back (was already in the FF) :-P -
But that's exactly what I'm saying: there will never be a perfect rule saying "all these are dupes, all those aren't".
About your shot: I made the same shot in November last year... but I didn't upload it because I felt somebody might call it a dupe.
I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it doesn't surprise me 5 people thought it was.... -
- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010
thats really frustrating... maybe i should look for 4 another people and delete about 50-60 shots which are much more dupes as mine ;-)
just kidding, but its really sad... -
I know it's frustrating.
My advice is: avoid shots that really *look* similar to previously uploaded shots. [I think that's the main issue with your KFP shot: it just looks too much like the other one]
If you think your shot is not that similar and deserves to be here anyway: don't forget to explain why in a shout when you upload it. If you don't, people'll just think you forgot to check for dupes.
And about shots in the Archive, I'd say: if they're not too much the same and if they've gone this far without being called dupes, leave them alone.
And that's just my opinion here. Not staff's. -
- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010
i think this theme need some change (i maked last time some deletion votes, but they removed often without leaving a cause - if i removed the votes on my shot too, i think it would stay now here, only all 2-3h an another vote) or the creator of the side should make a statement whats a dupe or not - i have many similar shots but dont upload it because i think people maybe vote for dupe, and each day there is a shot which is very close similar to a shot already here and it should be not dupe... -
MisterZob: "there will never be a perfect rule"
I agree on that. But there might be a rule that leaves less room for interpretation than "Don‘t post the same or a similar Snapshot". Even "it just looks too much like the other one" is a more exact definition of a dupe.
Maybe as Winterwolf suggested a statement in the faq describing a little more in detail what is meant by dupe could be useful. I would think dupes have the same background, same characters and same angle. The rules could also state not to use a character in a second shot (even if the background differs) or not to use the same background twice or not to use two shots with the same color-sheme or whatever. That would not be my understanding of a dupe but at least it would be a little bit more clear what is save to be uploaded. Of course there would still be need for discussion, but now dupe-decisions can be very random.
There is not even a possibility to get examples of what is considered a dupe cause when you read the post in this thread they are likely to be already deleted :(
btw: it would be a nice feature to get an information on your profile when a shot of yours got a delete-vote and the reason (not only if it already was deleted). I once had delete-votes on a shot and no idea what they were about. -
- CommentAuthorWinterwolf
- CommentTimeAug 8th 2010
@fnick
agree. maybe its possible if someone write a deletion vote, automatically a shout appears on the shot (not removeable) with the cause. So the uploader can read it, and if someone remove the vote, other people can see, there was already a deletion vote -
@fnick
I think it's not that simple.
We cannot make a comprehensive list of all elements that define a dupe. There will always be exceptions, stuff we didn't think about, ... Plus it would lead to forbid great looking shots just because someone already uploaded an average shot with the same background/whatever first.
BTW, "not use a character in a second shot" ??? Do you hate actors and actresses that much ? ;-) Not only should we delete half of WTM shots, but we'll soon reach a point where users could only uploads sunsets, helicopters, planets or guns. ;-)
I really think the rule is not that bad the way it is today.
Actually, when I want to upload a shot in a movie, I always check (even before getting to the upload system) whether there is a shot that already shows what I intended to show. If there is, even if it's not a "perfect dupe", I go for another shot. If I think my shot is different, even if some existing shot *might* look similar, I upload it and leave a shout to explain why it's worth having both shots (mine and the previous one) on WTM.
@Winterwolf
I like your idea of the deletion-vote that leaves a non-removable shout below the shot. -
"Do you hate actors and actresses that much?"
No, I do not. I said for me it's only a dupe if it is really the same scene or very very close. My point was that everybody has to define for himself what "similar" means. Without having any clue this can be interpreted quite different.
An example: this shot of me:
was accused of being a dupe of:
Different background, different people being witched at, but the same witch witching. I was lucky cause there were no 5 people to agree its a dupe and youre absolutely right .. half of the shots would have to be deleted then. This is why I suggested to make the rules a little bit clearer, e.g. if the whole shot has to look alike or if its already a dupe if parts of the shot are similar as in the example. Just to avoid that some shots will be deleted that are no dupes because 5 people interpret the rule very strict. -
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CommentAuthorKeyser_Soze
- CommentTimeAug 9th 2010 edited
How about this one:
with this one:
I don't consider it a dupe (just one hand, no watch...and it's a different hand by that) and it was painful watching it got deleted after it already got into the FF -
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CommentAuthorKeyser_Soze
- CommentTimeAug 9th 2010 edited
Here are some out of many examples I believe are very similar and are not considered dupes as the previous ones mentioned:
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/94154 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/2929
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/94196 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/28999
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/95051 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/64321
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/89079 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/77444
http://whatthemovie.com/shot/65128 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/44457
Now I don't say they are dupes but if we follow the discussion above than they should be deleted as well
and what's up with this http://whatthemovie.com/shot/66276 and http://whatthemovie.com/shot/3591 -
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Wow, there are obviously some dupes there Keyser_Soze!
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CommentAuthorKeyser_Soze
- CommentTimeAug 9th 2010
There's plenty more where that came from, unfortunately -
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Hmm, since we're talking in another discussion about scaling, that there are to much shots accepted on WTM (I've never thoroughly because it's waaaay out of my league), maybe this is one of those things to stop some (not a lot) shots. The rules must be more strict on this. Maybe some experts can make some rules regarding dupes?
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I removed this post because it contained spoilers.
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@Keyser_Soze
your third link is a spoiler that shot is still in the FF
please delete that one
but my opinion
what mrzob said
dont upload a shot what's similar is to an other shot in WTM. So you avoid deletion votes
and by the way rule nr 4 of uploading is:
"Don‘t post the same or a similar Snapshot, which has already been accepted at WTM."
the first and the third link Kungfu Panda shot in winterwolf's comment
it is a similar shot, so its a dupe, even if its 3 minutes later in the movie. The shot is similar. And WTM is about the shot and not the movie.
its just like the voting system
"do not rate the movie. Rate the awesomeness of the snapshot" -
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CommentAuthorKeyser_Soze
- CommentTimeAug 9th 2010
My bad, sorry about that... -