I am sorry to bring a title like this but i think something needs to be done right now. There are 2 big problems that are completely changing WTM: - Its too easy to cheat just by going to the movie page, you see ALL the images of a movie. THAT SHOULDNT BE - THis one bugs me a lot: the new rating system is killing the difficulty of WTM. People dont know how to rate images and rate them just by how they like the movie or how easy it is to find. You could tell me how do you know that? Just look at the feature films, it s too damn easy! you dont see any unsolved image anymore(except for some rare cases). In most case if you post an image of a new and pretty unknown movie, it wont get to the Feature Films! And that s a shame, and it s killing WTM to my point of view. Something really needs to be done, please! Maybe only uploading people should be allowed to rate a shot. And maybe all shot shoulb be accepted except for the ones voted for deletion. That way only people who know what they are doing can choose if an image should go to the feature Films.
- now one last thing about the tags. I made a suggestion about private and public tags. Just one person answered to it. I would like to have the opinion of the devs.
well, if you would want to know whether a still has been used before, you need to know the movie and go to the movie page. So any movie I don't know or am unable to solve, I cannot rate as the still could have been used before......
First, I don't believe WTM is dying, I even think it's a rebirth, with forceps perhabs, but we can already hear the baby's sceams.
The movie pages are NOT that bad ! Everyone was able to cheat before these pages, now it's perhabs easier to cheat, but if you don't want to, you can avoid to see the shots ! Everybody knows : only "Archives" shots are in the movie pages, so the real standing, working on Feature films shots, is safe. So "cheat" is not even a good term.
About the difficulty, I can see that the behaviours are always changing, and I can see uneasy shots and unknown movies still accepted in Feature Films. I don't believe the actual shots are so easy as you're pretending to say. The first solver has only 68% of good answers, pretty the same rate than before. And if you watch the Feature Films shots, you can still find hard (and beautiful) shots not so solved as you say (ex : http://whatthemovie.com/shot/20249 / http://whatthemovie.com/shot/20239 / http://whatthemovie.com/shot/20332 ...). Of course, there are also easy shots, but if the shots are quite "awesome", they deserve to be here.
So don't panic, anyone will be shot. Just let time makes the player's behaviours more stable.
I propose a modified two votes system: - allow voting for the awesomeness of the snapshot if resolved. Allowed from "Cable Monkey". Reject snapshots under a certain score. If nobody solved it then accept it (default score is enough). - Let people who has the right to do it (higher ranks) to vote for deletion if a snapshot is inapropriate (bad quality, not from legal source, etc)
The first vote ensures that people do not make nonsense votes to get easy bucks. The second one is already working well I think.
I think this would solve the two points below: Point 1: my score has improved since the new protocol has been used, it does not encourage me to watch more and more movies... I think it is the contrary of what WTM should do ! Point 2: too oftently the score of an image is proportionnal to its solve number.
My ranking went dramaticaly down since the new rules are applied, because I have dramatic holes in the culture of mainstream and very recent movies. Thus I agree that something has to be changed in the rules :) But I damn don't know what :(
About the title, i am not saying that WTM IS dying i just thought people needed to see that post.
- about the the movie page, i am not ok with seeing all images even just archives. i understand it for the upload page(even if i hate discovering some i didnt solved), but i dont see the point at all for movie page. I am sorry but even if there are only archive images i dont see why it s there! personally if by mistake i go to a movie page, like for example to make a review i must play hard with my eyes not to watch the images and i dont like that. At least make it an option not to see them to help people who really love WTM and even want to play in archives like i do.
- About the rating system, i am sorry but i really think things are changing. You can give me 3 examples of hard images but globally (i will rewrite efji sentence) only "mainstream and very recent movies" make it to the feature films. I am sorry but i think it s a shame. That s what i loved about WTM, sometimes you were euphoric because you found an image of a movie you never thought would find its way in WTM. You still see this in the new submission section but not in the feature films. To add to that, i am not a big uploader, i am quite new to that, but what i want in my uploads is to upload almost only new movies. I always choose perfect quality images (720p) but they never go through. Should i continue? should i feel disappointed and just stop uploading images? I just love seeing people solve my images but i would like the chance to see them go through. and i feel sad to see them rejected just because it s unknown. And i really feel that is what s happening right now.
May be you are right LePaposaure, maybe it will get better but i still think this rating system is not that good, especially because a lot of people rates just to get points...
The previous system was about a handful of people deciding which shots to keep and which to throw away. People complained because the moderators weren't able to make the difference between a good shot and a bad one. The new system is about the majority of users deciding which shots to keep and which to throw away. Interestingly enough, people complain for the same reason...
I think it's foolish to believe that Executive Producers will save the day (unless you become Executive Producer so you can save all the shots you like and it saves your day). Why would they be any better? They don't know what *you* like. A possibility is that they will accept everything, but in this case other people (or maybe even the same) will complain that there are too many uploads daily.
Now we could do something else: each user selects which shots he wants to see as feature films and those appear on *his* whatthemovie. Then each user could have his own hall of fame where he's best solver of all time so that would also solve all problems regarding cheating and unfair selection of movies. People would probably not complain then, would they?
I am sorry Zanapher but i never asked for such things. I never complained about the old system, and you know why? because all kind of images could go through I am ok with people deciding but there should be rules ensure variety, to ensure everyone finds what he wants in WTM. I dont count on Executive Producers to do anything. And i am not complaining in the way you are saying, i just dont want to loose what i loved so much about WTM and that i couldnt find in any other movie quizz. Is that wrong? And now if WTM devs dont want to change it, then i ll shut up if that s what you want.
I heard wtm was dying, someone get help! quick! how could that have happend?
to chip in my few cents: I have the luck of being with wtm right from the start. I've seen all the ups and downs, all the postive and negative feedback, and I'm really glad we implemented the forum rather qickly. I love how people write what they think of the site and how we can improve it.
That brings me to our main objective: It was and always will be our main goal to make a great movie quiz for all movie lovers out there. Over the months we have received tons of feedback and we always try to please as many people as possible.
What I have learned over the months is, that you are never able to satisfy everyone. It's just impossible. We'd invent the holy grail of webdevelopment if we achieve that.
farfromrefuge: you said you are ok with people deciding if there were rules. Which rules were you thinking of? And you said you'd be happy if every new submission would went to feature films. Well, I can assure you to be in a minority on this one.
gregoire: sorry, I don't get your proposal. Could you explain that a little? farfromrefuge: "And now if WTM devs dont want to change it, then i ll shut up if that s what you want. " << this statement doesn't help anybody at all Zanapher: Your comments leave me smiling all the time :)
I tend to agree with farfromrefuge about the rating system, the problem is that if people know the movie, they will give it a 10 to make sure it goes through and to get the points after. So it is quite logical that in the end, more known movies will be seen in the feature films part. And I also think it's a shame, I watch lots of movies but not too mainstream and one thing I particularly loved at the beginning of WTM was that I could discover movies, some shots made me wonder for days, I would wait a month to discover what the movie was and make sure I would watch it. I discovered a few movies that way and I trully think that this should be the purpose of WTM, not just a collection of what everybody already knows. There should be shots for all tastes of course, but there should be a good balance between known and less known movies which I dont think the system really allows at the moment! I'm not sure what should be changed but I think in the end, there will for sure be less interesting things with this system!
One thing I dont fully understand as well, even after reading the FAQ is how the shots move to the next round exactly. So there is a fixed amount of movies which get moved but how is it decided exactly? Is there a minimum rate the movie should have? (since I see movies getting moved or deleted every hour)
@Chrisy: As I understand it there are serverel fixed moments a day where it is decided which shot shall be moved to "Feature Films". Every shot which has been at least 24 hours in "New Submissions" can be moved to "Feature Films" if it is in the Top ?? (don't know) of all shots which can be moved to "Feature Films". If the shot isn't moved to "Feuture Films" within 48 hours after uploading it will be deleted.
The advantage of recognizing a movie by its snapshot: I can better judge whether the still really is awesome plotwise, i.e. if it's a crucial point or not - and how should I know that with the umpteeth guy pointing a gun at me or someone else? This might explain some of the votes a bit better, I think.
A disadvantage of the new submission system as holynoise already mentioned: A still has to be among the top x of the day. So if it (and the uploader) is lucky there are only bad shots around which makes it easier for the one shot to reach the feature films section. And during the last days one could see that there are days with lots of great stills while other days are mere average. And it's really sad if good stills get deleted just because of that. (What about a kind of redemption round? You know, like a relegation at the end of football season.) Therefore it might better to fix a certain value a still has to reach. Somehow I doubt people would ask their movie fellows to vote for a snapshot due to personal aspects, don't you?
@naut: about the rules i was talking about some like gregoire mentioned. Especially the one with only people solving can rate. As Sara mentioned when you solve a shot you really can judge the quality of the shot plotwise. Ok everyone can judge the quality of the image itself , but isnt it the point of "vote for deletion"? I know you cant make everyone happy but maybe we can find rating and submissions rules that will bring diversity to the feature films and will keep motivating uploaders. I also keep saying that not everyone want to upload known and already posted movies. Those who only post little known movies will get tired of seeing their movies rejected. I made the test, one week ago i uploaded 3 perfect quality shot(just judging the image quality not the rest) of 3 new but quite unknown movies, they were all rejected! The day after i said ok let s see what it does with know novies. I uploaded two and less than one day after they were both accepted... I ll keep trying uploading unknown movies because i know some people will be happy to see them in the new submissions section, but for how long?
If only the people who solved the shot can rate it you'll have a lot more known movie in the FF than now. People often vote high shots they solved so if only the solvers can rate,...
Yes and the majority of solvers vote high for the shots they solved so they can score points. The fact is that everyone has his own criteria. Some people prefer easy shots others prefer the most difficult ones. So even if you could vote for criteria like this (difficulty, popularity of the movie,...) that would always be subjective cause you cannot establish what is a good shot it depends on the player. If most of the players prefer easy shots of well known movie, you have to deal with it... (That doesn't satisfy me either)
As Sara pointed out in another topic earlier, people should rate the still for how good it looks. If a still just looks awesome like for instance this one http://whatthemovie.com/shot/21038 (in my opinion) i give it a high rating. I don't really like the actor-in-screen shots, so i vote them down. If everybody does this, this should be less of a problem.
But face it, this is the internet. There are always people messing around with things, also at wtm. And the major drawback of complaining in the forum is that the people who mess around probably don't visit the forum. Of the 14000 members, you see maybe 100 being active in the forum. So i think this is a bit of a dead end. I personally like the new system, because i think it gets people more involved in the WTM game. And WTM 2 has been online for maybe 2 weeks, so it's only natural that there are beginning errors (kinderziekten?)
@# forerunner Indeed people "should" rate on how good they look but it is naive to think most people rate that way. And as Farfromrefuge mentionned, in the end, people who post less known movies will get tired of not seeing their shots moving forward and will start uploading more easy ones with only result to diminish even more the all quality of the game Why not having some type of "Hall of shame" part that limited amount of people can vote back some that were not chosen? I dont know, just thinking...
Forerunner: the word(s) you're looking for is 'growing pains'. ;)
And I agree on that assessment. Overall, I think it works quite well now. On the first day, I will be honest, I hated it. That hovermenu drove me insane. But, after a few tries, and a few days of working with it, or around it rather, it grew on me. As fifty says; everybody has his own likes and dislikes (criteria), and you'll never satisfy all.
As for your conclusion that the 100-active on the forum is a bit of a dead end, I do not agree. For those 100 are clearly concerned and, instead of trolling around, they come with suggestions. Workable or no, they have the best interests of the website at heart.
I don't mean that the forum, or it's suggestions are a dead end, far from it. What i do mean is that the people who are active in the forum are the mostly older, dedicated WTM players (although a lot of new names are rising), who value stills on their beauty, not how easy they are. What i meant with the "dead end" is that we are constantly saying: "people should rate stills on beauty" to people who already do, and not to the people the message is meant for.
maybe that should be in the FAQ but again it's subjective. The majority of people vote high for easy shots so this would mean that most of the players prefer it that way and probably found it too difficult before. A good shot for you (and I toally agree on 21038) isn't good for all other players. Maybe a survey/sounding (not sure about the translation, "sondage" in french) to determinate waht is a good shot But the problem as you just dais is that we're only a few on the board and a lot of player will not even know there is a survey. Is it possible to do something like it on the lounge page?
The problem I think is not to know what is a good shot, we can agree that this is subjective. The problem is that people do not vote based on wether they find the shot good or not, they give high scores to the movies they know even if the shot is not necessary good to them!
Edit: as soon as you have points involved, you can be sure that this type of voting will not be purely based on the quality of a shot. Remove the point system (I'm not suggesting it) and I'm pretty sure we would see lots of differences on which shots are voted
Or just add a "continue theatrical run" button, as a counter-balance to the "vote for Deletion" button? 5 peeps vote it in, also at the same level as those who can vote for deletion, and voila; problem solved.
lol! if only it were so easy. It'll still be opinion-against-opinion, and what one person likes, another wouldn't even spit on. But it would balance it out a bit more, methinks. ;)
Chrisy: "as soon as you have points involved, you can be sure that this type of voting will not be purely based on the quality of a shot. Remove the point system (I'm not suggesting it) and I'm pretty sure we would see lots of differences on which shots are voted "
Couldnt agree more. Rating has become a way of getting points and not choosing which shot should be or not be in the feature films sections.
I do agree that they are no perfect solution. But shouldnt we try to find a solution that accommodates all kind of players? And to me, the current system is not made for people(i also mean uploaders) fond of little and limited movies. The mass speaks i understand that, but i really think that waiting for the system to grind is not a solution. As Chrisy said people will stop posting limited movies, what would be the point of it?
Plus I really dont understand why shots like this one http://whatthemovie.com/shot/20917 doesn't get deleted when some others are. This is the best example of what we are trying to say here I think This is exactly the same shot as for the movie poster.... so it went through just because people know it. It is just desapointing to see this type of shot going when you are actually trying your best to find something original which will not pass....
Part of the discussion is already implemented when judging new stills: Whenever your mouse hovers over the ten-star line there's a window saying "Do not rate the movie but the awesomeness of the still". Shouldn't people be able and willing to grasp that message?
@ chrisy, you could also say this is a good still. If you look at it, it's (i think) quite beautifull. I haven't solved it, so I wouldn't know if it's from a movie poster. I think it's a nice shot however.
Here are some random thougths to make the discussion go on:
-1- Giving a score from 1 to 10 is very subjective, everyone has his own scale. What about a more binary vote system: a thumbs Up/down. And what about hiding the result of this Up/Down vote as long as the movie is in the "New Submissions" section. This way you could give more bucks to those who "thumbed up" a snapshot that was effectively moved to Feature Films. I think it works the same way with movie reviews.
-2- Cheaper proposal (regarding development effort): voting in "New submissions" could be allowed to everybody but rewarded with WTM bucks only if the voter solved the snapshot. This would discourage people from voting only to get bucks.
-3- Be able to specify the reason why you gave a snapshot a bad score: "low quality", "not relevant", "too easy", etc This way the uploader might not feel too fooled. Maybe encourage people to do so in the shoutbox.
I think gregoire ideas are really good. One of the biggest problem for me is that people rate to get points. So i think the thumbs up/down is a great idea. Hiding the current score is for me essential because people often change their vote depending on the current score. I also think we need to give points only if you solved it. Isnt it the whole point of WTM? stimulate people to actually solve the shots and just not rate them! Please people give your opinion on that.
And to the devs, if users agreed on a better solution for the new submissions section, would you agree to change it?
- I still think that giving the opportunity to rate shots only to people who solved them will just increase the number of well-known movies getting to FF ause people often vote high the shots they solved (look at the shots with a high score they're nearly always the most solved). - Hiding the current score would be a good idea.
Thanks for your input gregoire. After closely reading your 3 points, I kind of agree that for a more neutral perspective, it could work to hide the rating in New Submission and only later reveal it in Feature Films. I don't think the thumbs up/down thing would help here because with a considerable amount of votes it would even out. We'd also limit ourself to 1 and 0, black and white, which is kinda bad.
I also doubt that giving points only for those who solved the movie would help, because people will rate nevertheless. But we could try it out. It'll be no problem to change that and see how things go.
Your third point is kind of interesting, too. As soon as we've implemented email notifications, we'll look into that. Thanks.
Chogori: The "continue theatrical run" buttons sounds aweseome but I doubt that say a 5.7 snapshot, whose run time got extended countless times will eventually make it in Feature Films. Snapshots with a higher score will keep popping up.
farfromrefuge: We *always* appreciate user feedback and we have changed wtm countless times due to you guys.
Another random thought (maybe it already got mentioned here) Allow all players to vote in new submission but give players who actually solved the movie more power. E.g. the vote has 5 times the power of a single vote. What happens if we introduce this feature, is that wtm will get even more complicated than it already is :)
but wouldn't only giving bucks to people who solved the still kind of numb the effect of rating. That way you create an elite of ultra-know-all-the-movies players, who can decide wich movies go through, and wich don't. That way, the goal of making WTM easier would go away i think.
@naut: I am really to see your answer. And when i asked if you would agree to change things there was no mean feelings at all!
As for your though about solvers having more power. I dont think it would change anything for easy shots and well known movies because most people rating will solve it, so the mean will be kept. But it will change a LOT for little movies where the few solvers, who really know if the shot is good filmwise, will be able to give it a lot more power! The only shots i am still worried about are the unsolved shots. I know we cant say if the shot is good filmwise but i fear we are gonna miss a lot of great shots.
Thanks a lot naut for answering.
PS: did you see my mail about my problem adding new movies?
"After closely reading your 3 points, I kind of agree that for a more neutral perspective, it could work to hide the rating in New Submission and only later reveal it in Feature Films. I don't think the thumbs up/down thing would help here because with a considerable amount of votes it would even out."
I agree with this. Hide rating in new submissions and reveal it in FF (but keep the stars-system).
"Chogori: The "continue theatrical run" buttons sounds aweseome but I doubt that say a 5.7 snapshot, whose run time got extended countless times will eventually make it in Feature Films. Snapshots with a higher score will keep popping up."
No no, I didn't mean it that way. Not countless times, just the 5, as is with the Deletion option. Like, when a shot sinks below a certain amount of points, say 4 or so, but it is an amazing shot (In someone's opinion), it could be that this button appears. If it gathers 5 points by the time it runs out of time, it goes through regardless of its score; if no 5 votes are given it's out. It's a way to save a shot, if it really, REALLY deserves it.
I also agree with hiding the rating in new subs. Good one, that.
I really like the "hidden vote" idea in "New Submissions" ! It could give a real chance to every shots, and would surely cancel the "imitation" behaviour. Of course, our own rate would have to be visible, till the shot go out of the category.
In principle, I agree with those above (like farfromrefuge) who say only solvers should be able to rate. How can you judge a still if you do not know the solution? I noticed, for instance, that 21128 was deleted only a few hours after it was online. It´s gone now so I cannot link to it, but it was, well, a Steven Soderbergh remake of a Russian classic. I saw the movie only once (the original more often), I did not remember the exact image, but knew in a split second where it was from, precisely because it was a perfect shot to capture both the atmosphere and the storyline of the movie. If you have not seen the movie you think the still sucks, but it doesn´t.
On the other hand, after you solved a movie, you do not want it to be removed. :-) So if only solvers can rate, ratings will probably mainly be high.
I do not know the solution, but it´s certainly not entirely satisfactory the way it is now...
I also have some problems with the new rating system, not only the point that my shots are rejected (sometimes maybe for good reason) but also to see that really stupid shots of known movies get high ratings, as well as anything gory or titty does, while anything looking too old or too weird (man kissing man) or too intellectual (french) gets low rates. democracy is not the best method to improve quality. the best movies in the world would rather suck if the whole team had voted about every scene or angle or script line...
nevertheless, i think this site is just a game and not too be taken too seriously. there is still much hard stuff in the feature film section and it's still lot of fun, even more with the new version, like having a profile, see what movies the top solvers like and so on. it would be a shame to lose those guys, though.
so what about having a three level feature film version. so that every movie that's not against the rules gets through and the number of solutions decides in which section it goes...so the players can decide if they want to play the easy game, the medium game (including the easy stuff and the harcore game (in- or exluding the easy stuff. wouldn't that be a solution everyone could be happy with?
I think Antituur's idea is a really good one. I can see a couple of benefits.
1) People can see the reasons their stills were deleted 2) They can serve as examples of what not to upload. 3) It stops people from uploading the same screenshot accidently again.
I also think the idea of a 'Salon des Refusés' is really good. Maybe its even an idea that people can leave comments if they really like certain shots and the moderaters can pick out shots that do go through. Like this shots that don't seem to be that nice at first sight but are really nice for a few people do get a chance to make it to FF. Cause the problem with the new system is that only shots that look really good or are real easy seem to go through. Harder shots which don't look too good for most people don't go through, but this can be really nice shots for some people, shots which leave a clue, that you have to puzzle a bit or shots from less known but really nice movies.
I have noticed that votes that start at 7.5 (with 20 votes) slowly decrease and reach 6.0 (with 80 votes). Has anybody else noticed that ? Would hidding the results stops this phenomenon ?
I noticed that too. Maybe it would be good to restrict access to new submissions area to people having at least 100 or 150 FF solves. Right now it is only 50 if I remember correctly.
basically the quality of moderation at this moment makes me cry. I see so many shots (that i cant solve too) that IMHO look nice get rejected for whatever reason. Probably because people don't know the movie and can't appriciate a shot that is typical for that movie, or people ah. whatever. Fuck democracy. I want the dictatorship back. A few people (10 - 20?) that are have enough decency to see a nice still when they see it. abd that can be an easy still too or hard or whatever.
probably also a system for approval where say 10 out of 20 say they like the shot is enough to get the shot through. I don't know what would be the right way, but if moderation goes on like this, i'll start looking for a new hobby. At this moment the whole balance of eazy / beaytiful / hard / classic stills seems to be gone and is shifting to "hey i know that one -> 10" and "hey, that must be old or i don't care about older movies or ones that i don't know or want to know about -> 1"
I have to say the site still is great, but the way stills are rated at the moment sucks BIG TIME and spoils the fun.
it's how i see it and it's my problem. just my 2 cents.