I must write something I have noticed some time ago, but didn't want to mention. But, now I will. When a well rated shot is approaching its 24 hours in NS and is most likely to be the next in FF, its rating magically starts to sink. Do you find that funny? Or is it just me?
Tell me about it. Just look what happened to my poor little snail http://whatthemovie.com/shot/102215 :) It had 7.63 (among best rated; sad I know) by the time it hit 24 hour mark, now it's 7.48 in just a couple of votes...
@LovelyT, I noticed the same thing... Perhaps there are "true competitors" on WTM who need to do that to make their shots go through... it's just like in the real world no? why should it be different ?? I don't care anymore to the vote on my shots... Just post, wait and see (and secretly trust in the mods !!)
Been talking to Winterwolf a while ago about this, kind of comforting to hear someone else speaking of it (that "I'm-not-alone" feeling, haha), I got really upset some times (like promising shots over 8 that suddenly get to 7.8 or smtg) and now I pretty much don't care anymore...also cause there are a few people I trust to post the trully good snapshots that will make it ;) Also, Keyser, I had already given you a high rating, so no much I can do, but anyways, hope it helps. Snails go slow, but steady :P
I've just read this topic. It is very interesting and I can't imagine that people can do that to promote their own snashots. It's too lame T_T I have not read all pages of the topic (sorry too tired) but on Youtube to stop the problem of people who rated 0/5 or 5/5, they made the system "like" and "don't like". Well I don't think it would work in WTM but may be trying to adapt it :) Good luck!
(BTW The snail is veryyy cute and I've given you a 9/10 before it was on FF and before i read this topic :p)
Wow, snail is becoming a star :) Thank you I agree this can be very upsetting sometimes (I know we are not here solo for uploading, and it is only a game but still, it gets to you), but awesomeness of the site, love towards movies and users like you (not because you gave me high rates :) ) keeps me going. So I say **** 'em and keep on playing and enjoying yourself :D Cheers
It's starting to be ridiculous because right after shot gets to FF the favorites and the rating start going up...fast O_o and from what I'm observing about my shots in NS now there has to be a lot of people voting 1
well that's not true. We have access to see the votes, I just checked some shots just by curiosity, not much 1 (often rated 1 or 2 when they are head shots or characters), some votes low but there are as much really high votes. And we can also see when people change their votes. In the case of the snail shot, noone changed their votes to a very low rating, more changed to a high rating. What made it go lower was simply coming from new voters ;) We cannot check all the votes, but we do random checks. I rarelly see anything strange comparing to some time last year where lots of people were voting strategically. I'm not saying noone does this but it is so few that it doesn't have a real impact.
I dont think this is happening as much as you think, at least looking at the ratings, it doesn't show this, lots of 7 which ok would have made the shot going a bit lower (but it is hard to consider a 7 as a strategic vote you must admit). Most of the low votes of that period came from people who dont even have any shots in the new submission or/and never upload shots so no strategic voting. Again, I'm not saying it isn't happening but I think it is a minority and therefore doesn't have a big impact.
I must disagree with you there, Chrisy. We often complain about things and of course you mods go there and check I I start feeling like crazy, cause it's never proved what we were thinking. But it seems we all have this feeling, and I'll stay by Sati, my own snaps also get their rating higher after they get to FF. So it's kinda funny, isn't it, that just the eventual voters that don't post anything in NS get to change our rating just as we have a chance of getting a snap to FF? Hmmm. And we ususally get our minds stuck to the idea of people voting 1, but it doesn't necessarely have to be it. I made an experience another day, as you said you can see when we change our votes you can check that, you can see it =) When in NS, I had voted this #98280 snap a 8.0, it passed if I recall with 8.22 rating. I found it on FF, re-rated it 1 and, well, it dropped almost 0.3, getting near to a perfect 8.0. Then I re-voted a 2.0, it didn't drop that much, but it surely would have been enough to keep it for another hour if it was still in NS. Also a 3.0 would have caused a big mess. My experiment done (and already apologizing to Jojo, you know I love your snaps), changed my vote to where it was before.
So that's it for me. Chrisy, I hope you get what I mean, I'm not arguing or anything :) we're just calling up to you mods to try and understand these weird things that happen with ratings and votings.
I agree with Chrisy. As I said before, I really don't think there is a big deal of unfair voting going on. It's much more likely that the first votes of a shot is of people who are all the time in NS and tend to rate higher. People who visit NS only once within a few days may have another voting behavior which must not be unfair, as Chrisy pointed out. You just have to accept that your taste is not necessarily the taste of the majority here. And the majority is not the people talking here in the forum but people you usually don't even know they exist.
@SunsetWalker, be sure if we would see something really strange happening, a common behaviour of some people, we would do something about it. It happened in the past, we made it clear to those people that strategic voting wasn't acceptable. And if it happens again, we will do the same. And we do take it serious, otherwise we wouldn't check. But I'm sorry in this case, I do not see anything strange that proves strategic voting of any kind
I posted the same shot a few months ago in NS and it got a very low rating (don't remember the exact figure) with no chance to go through. Are the voting people in NS and FF so different ??
There are just way less people voting in FF, because it doesn't give any bucks. Also, there are quite a few people who just look in NS every day and rarely go to FF. And then there is the fact that shots in FF don't need to pass anything, so people will vote different for it.
I thought about this before, and I think there's a simple reason for this: in the FF, only those people rate a shot that really like the shot, perhaps to show the uploader that the shot is appreciated. So out of the whole spectrum of voters, only those that particularly like this shot rate it (high, of course), so the higher rating is only logical.
Well that's too bad if people do this. My shot http://whatthemovie.com/shot/105144 was about to reach FF (it was the first a couple of minute before the bot takes a shot to FF) and apparently it was rejected. Too bad, many people answered the shot so normally they wanted it in the FF to reach FF points right ? 2 favourites, 7,5/10.. Sometimes i don't understand!
I think at least allow to vote ONLY one time is a must, why allow to change our votes in NS, some people who want their shot to reach FF will decrease votes on others shots when they see they are closed to. I think that's why my shot didn't make it.
Maybe WTM should rethink about the NS section and the bot taking one shot per hour. How moderators are pushing manually some shots ? They're going to the rejected shots section and watched some to push to FF or they do it live in the NS section ? If so, i think it's not so good. If they are no moderators online and the bot takes the first shot, the others are rejected and there is no moderator to correct it. Why don't disallow moderators to push shots (no offense guys) but allow the bot to push two or three shots per hour instead of one ? Maybe it'll stop this attitude.
And maybe check sometimes the friendship between votes, authors, and fellows. No offense again guys,that's normal nowadays to give a 10 to a good friend in WTM or whatever but that will not help the new user with his shots and no fellows to help him to reach FF or sotd.
So here are some ideas :
1) not allow author to vote on their shot (i'm not a liar i give a 10 to mine sometimes too..) 2) don't show the overall vote in NS section, just show our vote. 3) rethink the ratio to push to FF of the bot and the moderators who push shots manually 4) Like sports, remove the worst vote and the highest vote. 5) Maybe make an algorithm to see if friendship matters in the vote and if people who have good fellows which give a 10 everytime. 6) not allow people to change their votes. You vote on a shot one time, and that's all. You can't change it. Or at least, when the shot is closed to be pushed or rejected, not allow to change votes in this period. 7) make like imdb, ex. : players votes with a rank 5 are more considered in the overall vote than players votes with a rank 1. Something like that.
Hey Kinoute - just to focus on one of your points:
"Why don't disallow moderators to push shots (no offense guys) but allow the bot to push two or three shots per hour instead of one ?"
Because then FF would be flooded with easy shots and popular films and we would lose the variety that the moderators bring to the game. That was pretty much the reason moderators existed in the first place.
Yeah them00ch i understand this point. But what about the online thing ? How moderators are pushing shots to FF ? A moderator can push a shot after it was pushed in the rejected sections ? That was my point actually. It they can just push some shots when they are online and the shots are in the NS section, some people won't make it because when their shots are 0h left and there are no moderators online, they don't have a chance at all.
But if they can push shots which are in the rejected section, it's ok. I didn't find my answer to that in this topic that's why i'm asking sorry.
I edited my first post by the way with some ideas.
We don't have to wait for a shot to have only 0h left to push it. Thus we can anticipate periods of time we won't be online. Let's say I go to bed at midnight and wake up at 7:00. Just before going to bed, I'll check NS for shots I want to push from 0h left to 8h left.
I totally agreed with you them00ch when you speak about being flooding by popular movies.. I can understand the difficulty for moderators who are also players to push or not a movie. Maybe they don't have enough informations for that. But it's tricky to find a way to give informations to them without helping 'em to find the shot. I mean, if we don't want to be flooded by popular movies and want more unknown movies or movies which don't have a shot at all in the WTM Database (like this one http://whatthemovie.com/shot/104616 which has been rejected btw), the good thing will be to add the number of snapshots of the movie already in the DB in the shot page for moderators. Like this, they could see if the movie has already many shots or not at all, and take a decision "oh that shot is not so bad, there is no snapshot already for this movie, let's push it even if the overall vote is pretty average". Maybe you have already this information i don't know... just an idea. With this thing, moderators can still play and they have a good information which will help them to decide to push or not a shot (its votes, its favourites, its comments, and the number of snapshots already in for this movie without being able to see the title and help 'em).
Firstly, just pushing shots because the movie has no shot already in the DB is a bad thing, imo, the actual shot itself also has to be good.
"I think at least allow to vote ONLY one time is a must, why allow to change our votes in NS" Because people suddenly solve the shot and appreciate it more because it is a tricky shot or less because there are better shots in the movies and especially, because people misclick!
"1) not allow author to vote on their shot (i'm not a liar i give a 10 to mine sometimes too..) " <-- Everybody does, which evens it out. "2) don't show the overall vote in NS section, just show our vote." <-- Might work, as long as you let it remain visible for uploader and mods "3) rethink the ratio to push to FF of the bot and the moderators who push shots manually" <-- As m00ch said, when more shots go through scruffy FF will become too easy, when more by mods it will become too hard "4) Like sports, remove the worst vote and the highest vote." <-- Too many voters for that in NS, imo "5) Maybe make an algorithm to see if friendship matters in the vote and if people who have good fellows which give a 10 everytime." <-- Good idea, but us mods manually check voting behaviour already. Writing a script for this may be too much work. "6) not allow people to change their votes. You vote on a shot one time, and that's all. You can't change it. Or at least, when the shot is closed to be pushed or rejected, not allow to change votes in this period." ^^^^ See top "7) make like imdb, ex. : players votes with a rank 5 are more considered in the overall vote than players votes with a rank 1. Something like that." <-- Good idea
I agree with point 7) players votes with a rank 5 are more considered in the overall vote than players votes with a rank 1, have suggested myself something like that somewhere...
No problem! Seems like WTM is more a flickr of movies now that a unique snapshot quiz ahah!
@Asmodal: Obviously when i talked about pushing shots to FF when the movie doesn't have a snapshot in the WTM database at all, i wasn't talking about pushing every shot. I meant by that, the number of snapshots of a particular movie could be helpful for moderators to decide to push or not, like an additional information after votes, favourites.. Let's see 2 shots :
1) Sleeping beauty, 7,5/10, already more than 60 snapshots in the DB, 2 favourites. 2) an unknown movie, 7,5/10, no snapshot in the DB, 1 favourite.
It could be helpful for moderators to see this number to take their decisions instead of just judging by the "good-looking" thing everytime. I can't tell myself now if WTM is a contest about who will make the most beautiful snapshot or who will resolve the most shots and reach the top of the Hall of Fame ?
Another idea but not so great: Don't allow people who have shots in the NS section to vote for others snapshots in the period of their snapshots.
Again, i love WTM, just try to discuss some points. I just feel like the beauty contest thing is taking too much place on the quiz thing.
I think @kinoute's idea about not allowing to change your vote at all is bad, but as he said, allow the changing till the shot reaches 24H, that way it isn;t possible to vote tactically on the last moment.
thanks for your input and ideas kinoute. I agree with Asmodai who pretty much said it all in his comments.
The main barrier for the dilemma "my shot didn’t make it" will never change. There’ll always be more shots submitted than accepted. We probably won’t work on fine grained scripts and methods to add additional complexity to the NS system and instead focus on how we can reduce the amount of shots in NS and make the system scale better (see latest blogpost on this matter).
I did some quick implementations this afternoon and mods are now able to see how many shots of a shot in NS are in the archive. Your example was quite convincing :)
Hey naut, glad to hear that. Hope it's gonna help mods to take good decisions. (to be clear : i'm not saying they don't actually ahah!)
Good luck with the scale-thing, i read the post and yeah it's gonna be tricky to find a way to improve the NS section because WTM is gettin' bigger everyday.
i just discovered this thread and so i found out that other guys have same opinions about the rating system.
i pretty much agree with kinoute's ideas. although it's been more than a year since the last post in this thread, i see that there is still no difference. most of my snapshots get a 1 or a 2 in their first 3 ratings.
regarding the system scalling - considering that most (or too many) people are voting "strategically" for New Submissions, only those who have a good number of friends will have the most accepted snapshots (as it happens today and it will be happening more and more with the increase of WTM users number). my opinion is that there should be added some fairness rules (like 4th and 7th ideas of kinoute's).
now regarding an observation of Asmodai's: "[...] people suddenly solve the shot and appreciate it more because it is a tricky shot or less because there are better shots in the movies and especially." I agree with that. but WTM has a second rule for that - the vote of those who guess the movie title are considered 3 times more than the others. this last rule doesn't seem fair because the 1 (or 2) rating of an user who will vote "strategically" and will guess the title will decrease more its average rating.