After several weeks of different upload processes tries (famous and underestimated movies, beautiful landscapes, clues, famous actors, ...), let me say that I feel satisfied with the actual system, fast and fair, with a good logic of awesomeness.
Nevertheless, I noticed few things I wanted to discuss about :
- Mods still have a huge work to do, just to magically accept a lot of % of the final FF shots. - So many shots from blockbusters and famous movies are going through, always the sames, even if the shot is not so awesome... LotR, PoC, Harry Potter, Matrix, etc etc... I love these movies, the shots are good, but these are a little bit too much, for me. - Unknown movies are voted down. That's a fact, if so few people are able to solve a shot, it's going to have a bad score after 48 hours. And if Mods are not in the mood to accept it, we'll have to repost it again and again, until Mods will locate the holy shot !
So I was wondering if it was not possible to think about improvements, especially for shots from movies that have NO shots yet in the database.
As I can guess WTM is about to become a fabulous database of pictures from movies, all movies, from all around the world, with reviews, trailers, etc... I truely believe it's important to add firstly shots from unknown and unseen movies.
And you know that it's difficult to find gorgeous shots from thousands of DVDs, from excellent movies that are not eyes-candies, with ugly characters (just the real people, I guess...), not living extraordinary stories, on exotic planets with beautiful sunsets... They are just movies, as any other movie, and they are just NOT in WTM.
So would that be a good idea to give a bonus to upload shot from underestimated or unknown movies ? I don't know what process could be the best, but I was thinking about :
- A % bonus for the calculation of the final vote in NS ; if the shot is the first of the movie in the Database, so the shot has a 25% bonus (for example) of the total score. - A message, or special tag, only viewable by mods, to show that it's the first shot from a movie. So Mods could help this shot to go through. - A formula (it's quite difficult to create, I'm not an ingenior !) to give a malus for every shot in NS coming from a movie which already has many shots in Archives. So the LotR-PoC-and-Cie movies could still be uploaded in FF, but with more difficulty. So more chance for the other shots !
You could tell me to use Awesome Uploads for my rare shots from rare movies, but I have to say that I don't have enough AU for all hundreds of rare and precious shots I can extract from unknown DVDs. For me, we need another help.
Here are examples of previous uploads of rare and unknown movies I made that have been rejected :
And a last one, convincing example of a good shot from an excellent movie which have no beautiful landscapes, boobs, explosions, famous actors, Johnny Depp...
I'm on your side with this one LePaposaure. In fact I had already suggested a few of your ideas to the admins quite some months ago. Nice to see that someone else feels my pain. Your ideas are all worthwhile considerations I feel, and we have discussed already a couple of those ideas.
At the moment, its just too *easy* to get a shot from certain films through, even if the shots aren't great. Some uploaders only ever upload shots from PotC, matrix, CG films etc.. and their shots have much more chance than a "better" (obviously this is subjective) shot from a lesser known, rare, or classic movie. Some great movies are woefully under-represented on WTM's movie pages.
I have lots of respect for you, misterzob, RDPL55, efji, foxlady, razzomega, lnatbf (and many, many others of course) who strive to find good shots in older, rare, classic movies. Anything we can do to help bulk up the movie pages for these films is a good thing imo.
From my POV as a moderator, as things currently stand, just try to make sure you take the most interesting/beautiful shot from these harder films, and they have a very good chance of going through.
Gotta say, that doesn't happen only to unkown movies, there is a whole load of Oscar nominees and winners that got just a few shots. Some examples:
Cleopatra - 2 snaps My Fair Lady - 4 snaps Gigi -0 snaps Shakespeare In Love - 3 snaps
I'm a bit lazy to go searching movies around, but you can have an idea. I actually think it's awesome to have lots of snaps of some movies cause most images do look beautiful, but it's such a crappy feeling when the person could choose between great action scenes, landscapes, or other many things, and instead, uses that slot many people were waiting for to post a straight pic of someone's face! Gah...
@m00ch : "From my POV as a moderator, as things currently stand, just try to make sure you take the most interesting/beautiful shot from these harder films, and they have a very good chance of going through."
In this case, the shot is IMO the most beautiful of the movie. The others I took are interesting, different angles, lights, and characters, but when you consider the movie (a road movie, with only views from digital cameras on-board in a car), it's really hard to find a featuring shot without any blurry part. And at the end of the 48 h. process in NS, the shot has a score of 6.08 (67 votes), with 6 solvers and 2 favs. So it's purely a shot for a different process than the normal one. If I had an awesome upload free for it, I would use it directly. But this kind of shot deserves a different way to exist !
I can't comment on individual shots. I mean they cant all go through, some have to fail, so it might have been there were just "better" shots at the time which prevented that one from going through. I dont know, I dont remember seeing that shot myself. I must confess I dont find the shot *that* good, but I didnt solve it, so I don't know the context etc..
Forgetting individual shots though, I completely agree with the sentiment of your original post.
A formula like : add 1/(n+1) to the score of all the shots, where n is the number of shots already present in the DB, would lead to add 1 point to a shot from a movie having no shots in the DB 0.5 for 1 shot already present 0.33 for 2 shots and 0.01 for 2001 a space odyssey
@mooch : you forgot Cinfils and them00ch in the short list :)
I wholeheartedly agree, PotC shots can be beautiful, but after you solved 50 of them it's just boring. I think I've just got used to the idea that if you go for lesser known movies, you're gonna have to rely on the "magically accepted" method and that you won't get more than 1 shot out of 3 in the FF. Once you've realised it, perseverance is the key.
I agree. I try to upload movies that are not blockbusters, but they just keep getting rejected and at some point it's just no fun anymore. For instance, Moonstruck. I think it's a lovely movie and I tried to get some shots in without success. I didn't use a shot with Cher or Nicolas Cage but something else. And the shots were nice if I may say so myself ;-) Then someone uploads a shot with Cher and Nic so people recognize the movie and it gets into FF. This keeps happening. I keep trying of course but sometimes it makes me a bit sad :-(((((( Oh and the blockbusters I do like I can't get a slot for hahaha.
Hi all... As a kind of "specialist" of "movies that are few (not) recognized" I can only agree with Papo... I create many new movies in the db and lots of them remain without any shot... And won't because after 2 or 3 unsuccessfull tries I give usualy up... There are some people (them00ch listed them) who tries to bring more diversity in WTM and that's great... I don't know if ther is a practical way to make more easier the access of such movies to FF except perseverance, but it's certainly worth of searching a solution to this reoccuring problem... even if mods are very helpfull (many thanks to them once more...)
Hey, yes I agree too. We really need to give lesser known movies a boost. That is one of the things naut and I will look into this summer. I think efji idea of skewing the rating is pretty good, we'd have to see if we can make that transparent to the users. Because most of them don't even understand how the current uploading system works.
I agree with all of you, it is hard to see your shots going down when you know they would make it on ratings if they were more known :( Something should be done for sure. But, may I say, that If some movies only have character shots in them, I dont see any interest in having them in the quiz, sorry but before been a database of shots, this is a movie quiz, it has to be a bit challenging and interesting. You can use the character upload functionality, that's what I also do, I wont post a shot in the quiz which I find a bit boring just because the movie is not represented on WTM yet (and I dont see in which way it is making people want to watch these movies), some movies concentrate less on the visual that's very true then maybe make a review instead, talk about it, a face shot where nothing is happening wont talk much to the people who look at the movie page. There are enough rare, unknown movies with a lot of interesting shots ;)
The problem is that whan you put a shot with, for example, a door handle, objectively this shot is bad, I can do the same shot with my cellphone... but if it's a shot from a blockbuster you'll have 100's people who will recognize it and it get 8/10 if you put exactly the same shot of a door handle of an unknown movie 0 people will recognize it and you'll get à 4/10, for the same shot... It's sure that for "Die Hard" or something like that, if you show Bruce Willis face it's ridiculous, but If you want to post a shot from "A women under influence" or a shot from a meledrama of Sirk or from a movie from Ozu, you have to post characters, because characters are the subject of the movie... otherwise you'll get immediatly a 4/10 and absolutly no chance for FF (bythe way with an Ozu movie you never reach the FF, I tried many movies, many shots and : 00). For example the shot I posted http://whatthemovie.com/shot/91820 is only with characters but it's a key moment of the movie and you can feel thier emotions... If a movie is a melodrama of the 30's, it seems interresting to show shots wiith charactersl feeling something... of course you can allways post a shot of a door handle and be surprized that noboody recognize it and get a 3/10...
Of course I'm wrong !! That's why I wrote this !! And if I chosed "Die Hard" it's just because I looked at the (very very nice) shots you linked before writing it...
@Chrisy : I'm not following you with your definition of challenging. :) Yes, it's a movie quiz, but the "poor" shots we could upload from an old movie can be as interesting as any blockbuster's shot! I mean a simple shot (even with a character) from an old movie can be a good shot for a quiz, especially if the movie is underestimated ! And about the reviews/character shots/all the tools to say that we love a movie, it's not enough ! I want all the movies in the game ! Even is they are ugly and only about human !
@Chrisy : In fact, we apply the rules of Uploading. It's written somewhere - I don't find it anymore - that we have to upload easy shots for the "old or rare" movies..... And it's true. For instance, this one was too much difficult and of course was rejected : http://whatthemovie.com/shot/34886 And this other one - same movie - with the main caractere, was... rejected too. http://whatthemovie.com/shot/35250 Oh my demonstration falls apart ;-)
If I may say something, I would just like to add that I agree with some statements here. I admit, I am the one who gives low ratings to character shots because I also think they should be uploaded under this category. But, I also agree that it is not easy to find many shots in old movies and the character shots represent something in them, but the fact is that when people don't know the movie, ratings start to sink, which is so sad. And there are so many new movies which get high grades only because they are famous and people know them. I don't know, but I think that this is getting more common here on WTM and I hope that this will change and that quality shots will overcome. :)))
I dont like these character shots: old or new. I dont see any interest in them, if it is just recognising the actress/actor and then searching IMDB, beurk, I dont like those and the old ones get the same treatment from me as a shot of Johnny Depp. Yes it is true some movies only have those shots in them, I also come accross those in some of the movies I watch, then I use the character shots functionality because it is indeed nice to have them showing on the movie page, then they also are represented on WTM but I dont see the point of having them in the game, but I guess that's just me then. There are a lot more interesting things that can be posted with real quiz value and yes also easy shots. I also agree with you with the fact that for less known movies, we should post easier shots when possible but a character shot with nothing special, I dont get it sorry. Straight 1 from me ;)
I like the formula idea, but I would like to add that when you're the lucky first one to post a shot from like Avatar your shot gets a boost for being a just released movie and it has no shots in the archive yet. So maybe the formula should only work with movies older than a couple of years (say 2 or 3).
Hi ! Here's a character shot http://whatthemovie.com/shot/86474 I found it nice, nice light and photography, a strong sad expression (those who saw this movie... is there someone ?? will understand why and they know it's an important subject of the movie) but even the best of us do not know what's her name... and the fact that only Cinfils solved it is a proof (further more he knows the kind of movies I watch!!) The same for this one http://whatthemovie.com/shot/57793 Who can tell me her name without watching Imdb ?? And here http://whatthemovie.com/shot/60520 the actor is well known but I found the shot only very nice and the death of the character is a key moment of the moive... And here http://whatthemovie.com/shot/60933, you see the two main characters (who know thier names ?) but the whole movie is thier story of love and hate, what the interest in such case to show a landscape or door handle that no one will recognize ?? The shot show the most powerfull moment of the movie that's all... This one is quit bad http://whatthemovie.com/shot/14437 but I posted it after many tries of other more difficult shots of this movie and curiously this one (the ugliest i posted) was accepted... So it doen't seem to be so simple... no ??
Don't focus too much on the character thing here, we should focus on the issue lepaposaure raised - I would say all those shots you posted RDPL55 all have something "extra" to elevate them above normal character shots, whether is is lighting, scenario etc...
The funny thing is, the first 3 (all beautiful imo) were all accepted by a moderator, and the one you said yourself was the "ugliest" (no offence intended but I would agree) went through automatically on public vote :) Probably because it was the easiest.
And I think this is where the core of my problem lies at the moment. I feel WTM has moved away from the puzzle side, and nowadays it's just about posting really obvious publicity shots of popular movies. I don't object at all to modern popular movies (I love a good, dumb, mindless blockbuster myself :) ) but I'm sure most of the old-timers here would remember the times when someone posted a shot of a character from PotC or similar, only to be lambasted by the public in the comments for posting such an easy shot. In those days, I didn't mind the odd no-brainer shot, because they were few and far between, however it seems to be the norm lately. And the annoying thing, is that these shots fly through now with crazy scores, when they are just character shots or otherwise really obvious shots from modern films, with rarely anything special about them. While the people who are trying to add diversity with older, or more obscure, rarer films are left in their dust. The balance (in terms of voting) has swung way in favour of the obvious shots. I also respect that there are users who post really difficult shots from modern popular (easy?) films, and give us something to think about for once :)
A by-product of this is that I am not really discovering new movies here like I used to. I mean, I still do, but it seems a slower trickle now instead of a completely overwhelming choice of new directions to go. I get more recommendations from hanging out in IRC than the site itself now, which is a shame. I discovered so many great films back in the early days. I dont need to discover all the current blockbusters, I'm interested in expanding my rather limited film vocabulary a little :) I find myself now just concentrating on what a few select users are uploading to discover some new films.
I don't really know what could be done about this though. For the time being, I guess it is up to us moderators to try and swing the balance back the other way a little bit (and we really try believe me). But it's a delicate juggling act, because you guys have to also bear in mind the core FF players. I personally find it tough to justify putting a shot through with zero or 1 solve, we have to also think about what is good and fun for the players in FF. Zero solves could also mean it's been uploaded under a wrong title, or generally broken/unsolveable in some way :)
Perhaps a possible solution is more weighting to the votes? or weighting it differently somehow?
@RDPL55 i never said they weren't any exeptions, of course ;) I can also find some character shots really nice ;) but I must admit, in general, they bore me, if you look at the character shots I posted, you will see that some could have been posted in the game session but I decided not to, because I dont really find it too interesting for the game but you are allowed to have a different opinion :) Anyway, as mooch said, it isn't really about character shots, it is about less known movies in general which have less chance to go through then others, for this I fully agree something should be done
May be it's not the shot but the uploader who need to be helped with a magic formula like efji's ? After a while, some of us could win a memorabilia of "crazy people who watches old and rare movie in a square format" and for instance their uploads will be noticed in red for the moderators (aka "people of good will who need attention") or, why not will be helped with some extra points ?
And may be this new reward will gonna convince players to try something else than their Angel-A and their Avatar ?
Just a thought and it's probably already been discussed but what if you can only vote on a snapshot once you have solved it? This would protect all the less well known movies from being voted down by people who give 1s and 2s to snapshots they don't know. For any snapshots that are unsolved (therefore having no score) it would be up to the moderators to decide if they go through?
I also think the vault quests are great for getting the unusual shots onto WTM...it seems the main game I have to say, has lost all interest to me but it's for everyone so you are always going to get easy shots and boring head shots of famous actors...but if that keeps more people playing then that's good surely?
I just play the vault quests now because that's where I see all the interesting shots and seems to be where all the movie lovers are!
Another thought (if anyone is still reading....), maybe it's time to stop any more uploads for Harry Pirates and the shrek of matrix???
@scottp Then a shot with like 3 solves would have really unfair chance, it can have a 9 or a 3, depending on only 3 people. That would be unfair... And for like PotC matrix etc shots it will have no effect since almost everyone solves it...
i rarely try shots from unknowner movies or hard shots. always the same, the mods take 1 from about 5, and 4 are after 48 hours running out of time with 1-15 solver and a rating about 6,x. Got only 1 shot through from a harder movie (91411) and one pushed by mods (88851) and about 8 rejected. Thats too bad for me, thats only frustrating. So i try only 1 per week.
@scottp what about shots without solvers? there are each day 1-3 of running out of time without any solvers. If someone think there are to many shots from 1 movie, you can set another timer for movies with many shots already here. For example all movies with 25+ shots set a timer of 14 days before next NS is available. LotR Matrix PotC are only 3x3 shots all 7 days - thats not a problem, but the old Disney Animation or better say all Animation, all days you have 5-10 shots of them, some are nice and interesting, but most of them boring shots in my opinion, but doesnt matter they got all a good rating. Never seen a Cinderella or Snowwhite shot got rejected... from PotC, Matrix, Lotr very often shots got rejected
@chrisy 100% agree, i dont want see boring headshots. A headshot should have somehing magically, if not there is the option to upload a charactershot, doesn´t matter its a known or unknown movie
I continue my last comment : For instance, when you've created a certain number of "Movie Pages" (20 ? 30 ?), you could win this famous memorabilia of "crazy people who watches old and rare movie in a square format" and get the attention of the Mods or get some extra points for your uploads.
actual ranking = R* [ A/(A+S)] R=normal ranking (just the avg of the votes) A=average number of shots per movie (this is the same for all films) S=number of shots currently for the film
It could be too powerful, shots from crowded films will be impossible to pass, but the mods could help. Could also be: R+ A/(A+S) , which is more mild - bonus of 1 point for unrepresented movies, practically no bonus for crowded ones.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of that idea, it should be about the shots, not the players. At the end of the day, this is a site that is focused on the visual. I don't think a particular player should get a free ticket, it would promote laziness in selecting worthwhile shots. Why try the hardest to pick a shot with a certain visual flair, when any shot that particular player uploads gets a free pass? I am sure there is a much fairer solution to be found, I just don't know what it is yet :)
I do try my hardest to push older, rarer shots, as long as they have a certain attractive quality about them, they shouldn't get a *completely* free pass just because they are from an older or under-represented film, or the balance has swung too far the other way.
You also have to bear in mind that a character shot from a niche film with less than 100 votes on imdb is unlikely to be "fun" for the main players of the site. You would be lucky if there is a single other person on the site had seen the film. While I am all for redressing the balance, we don't want to make the game too niche and cult, or it just becomes unattainable for the average player.
****Although I DO agree that something is needed to level the playing field between older/rare and newer films. ****
Lower solves do get lower votes, as lepaposaure stated, this is fact, and THAT is the only issue I think that we need to address. If we can fix that, then the rest will fall into place. Hence the need for further weighting of the votes, or something entirely more radical. At the moment, a fantastic shot from an older/unknown movie, gets lower votes than an average (sometimes downright poor) shot from a modern mainstream blockbuster movie, and THAT is the issue we need to fix.
I don't realy know if something must rally be done. Indeed, some of us post rare , unknown, old movies. They are poorly recognized and by the way often poorly noted because one of the most important and reoccuring problem is the fact that the movie is noted before the shot (not always but very often). Even in the advices given to upload, it is sait that a good shot is for example a shot taken at an key moment of the movie. Such shot might be ugly (and often is) but if the movie is well known it will get good note and go to FF but if the movie is unknown, even if it's a key moment it gets 3 and be rejected... For old or unknown movie we always have to find very huge shot, visualy very impressive, in fact "true awsome shots" if I could say. When somebody find the title of some of my shots I often ask if he (she) has watched the movie, and often it's no... Ideed on the thouthands of players I'm quite th only one who have watched the movie... (and it's the same for some of us, a deep feeling of loneliness !!) So I think it'shard to impose to people shots they don't care about, they won't loose much time to solve it, they don't watch such movies and certainly won't because it's not thier kind of cinema... It's true for me too I won't watch Harry Potter or Die Hard ou Shrek or Underworld, despite all the shots wich are posted again and again... (just the opposite indeed !! the strrange feeling to have seen it all) So I think it's good that the mods help those type of movies to bring more diversity and to make that people who have a different cinematographic culture can play too but I'm not sure it's good to impose to the majority, who watch the same 300 movies, too much diversity they don't care about. If you want to be curious and watch different movies it's quite easy now to get access to many many different movies, if few do it it's because few need it. (a great paradox of our society who promote individuality, difference, ego and generate by the same way an incredible uniformity !!) To finish, the main problem is the vote wich is twisted, and I think it will be difficult to correct it, because it's a game and in game you have competiton too (for most of people), changing minds is difficult, for example the mods found people cheating... so... But if mods propose a solution to make that more oldies and strange things go through I won't protest of course ;)))
I am the person, who loves old movies. I love in those films what is often missing in new films - excitement, great dialogues, scenes, pictures. I am not saying that the new films are devoid of these elements, but they are increasing emphasis on the technical page, forgetting the magic. I am a person, about which writes RDPL55 - often give notes to the movies that I haven't seen, but in contrast to the majority I bookmark them to find out the title. And I'm not talking only about black and white images, but also about the films, which probably I wouldn't know by myself. For examples the Espirito de la Colmena (thanks to them00ch) and Black kiss (thanks to Chrisy). There is lof of people how bring magic to WTM and I hope that they won't stop doing this. And Mods help those movies with a little bit of magic, if it necessery ;)
I can agree more with the fact that "unknown" movies are always rating downer than blockbusters ! And that's really too bad because there are wonderful shots from movies which are not as known as LotR, PotC, etc. I don't think it will ever be a solution to this recurrent situation but I have to thank mods for accepting some shots with a bad rate regarding to the quality (btw I think SotD is rarely attributed to a shot solved by less than 100 users).
I think you're wrong there, I just went through the SotD's of november until now (so 23 of them), and 8 of those have <100 solves, which is over a third!
I would just like to add something. I agree with Asmodai and LePaposaure and I would also really like to put away this topic, but there is only something I would like to say. I think that it is not nice to generalise and say that everyone gives higher ratings to well know movies. I rate shots according to their beauty and how interesting they are. It doesn't matter if the movie is Lotr, HP or some other well known one or a b/w movie from the 20-s. And I have more than 50% fav shots from the shots I don't know and the movies I haven't seen. And one more important fact - not everyone can get a hold of rare, old or not that famous movies. I think that's also the point why there are more shots from well known movies. And the point of this game is to rate the shot, nevertheless the movie it comes from :)
You name it LordMyst! I have to remind myself of that very important rule #1 of the game again and again! The happy feeling going along with every solve should not play a role in someones judgement. That´s why I don´t type in a solution in the NS, but only in the FF. So I may suggest: Solving should only be possible in FF! I know, that does not solve the problem "blockbuster vs. classic/lesser known movies" 100%, but people, playing rarely WTM, might become more aware of the fundamental idea of this game.
I agree with Asmodai on thisone, and I think the number of votes (and thus reliability of the rating) goes down then, because less people will check the new submissions when there's nothing to solve.