Ok, I'm gonna start of by saying that this is really not just meant for myself but for loads of people, my shots have been getting good results lately anyways. But I have noticed that some snapshot rating just seem to drop hard for no apparent reason. First of all, I don't think a snapshot ever deserves 1 star. The only reason for that is that it might be considered offensive or low quality and if that's the case it won't get through anyway or will get deleted... Second, I have noticed that these rating drops seem to occur pretty much every day for almost all snapshots. Now, I'm not saying that the votingsystem is broken but I am saying that there are a couple of players that seem to be ruining it for the rest (intentionally or not). My suggestion would be that as soon as a snapshot has say 30 votes that the bottom 5 and the top 5 votes should not be counted in the calculation. Much like is done in professional sports where the highest and the lowest score that are given to a professional gymnast are dropped. This way you get rid of a lot of ridiculous 1 star votes and you can get rid of votes from friends always giving 10 stars. It also will level the rating out more to an average. Because (most) shots will end up between the 6 and 8 star rating people who vote with 1 star will have quite a significant impact which can hardly be excused. It's just a suggestion, it might already be implemented in some way without me noticing or it's just too hard to put into the site. :)
And yes, I have been known to give 1 stars but I have not done so in a while since I realized that it's just never really worth to do so. unless I have a clear reason to give it 1 star I will not and I'm even willing to tell someone why I did so. I can tell you I gave a few 1 stars a few months ago but that was when I was just spiteful, I really regret doing so now.
I would like to point out again that this is NOT about the rating on my shots alone, I´ve been steadily getting shots through with ratings I can happily deal with :)
I also realised that since a while the average rating from all shot sank and I also don't understand why. Some shots that are in my opinion good become rejected and some I don't find very good become accepted, but tastes are different and that's it what we have to accept imo.
Yes it's sad for everyone to get only 1 star votes but that's the system and the mods are doing a good job to pick only 1 star voter.
I understand how frustrating it can be but I don't think there should or can something change.
Well like I said, my snaps are getting through plenty of times. So that's not really what I posted this for. The low ratings sometimes bum me, ofcourse. Seeing you have a 8.40 rating with 25 votes and then 10 votes later you see it went down to 7.50 can be annoying but doesn't really matter, it's just annoying :p
And I completely agree with that tastes differ and such but to give 1 star.... that shouldn't be just not liking the shot, it's for feeling disgust or loathing for a shot (I for one am always tempted to give a 1star to any shot with Keira Knightley in it, but I get over myself :p).
And don't forget, when you are actually trying to find an average in anything, it always helps to cut of the extremes. Because they have too much of an impact on the main group.
I always try to use the whole scale of possible ratings that's available to me. That means my votes include everything from 1 star to 10 stars, with an average rating that's probably somewhere between 5 and 6. The snapshots that I rate with a 1 are usually shots that I think are completely boring. No interesting content, no interesting visuals. An example would be character shots, that only show the character without any emotional reaction, without anything the character interacts with and without an interesting background or maybe some special lighting.
my voting behaviour is quite similar to dooooms. i rarely give out 1 stars, but i give them out. and i rarely give out 10 stars even when it's a friends shot (sry @my fellows, especially mr. favourite aka bius :D), usually only my favs get 10 stars but also this is no rule and quite rarely... and i confess that if i have rated a shot (e.g. 8) and recognized that the general rating is to low for my taste (e.g. around 7) then i raise the rating (to 10) cause i know it will get rejected otherwise :(
well, i also noticed the general ratingdrop in the way you described it at the last time, just watch the latest sotds http://whatthemovie.com/shot/229194http://whatthemovie.com/shot/229318 with ratings under 8 Oo thats unusual for a sotd isn't it? or scruffy accepts with a 7.5 shot? a half year ago there was no scruffy accept under 8 wasn't it?
for me its more annoying that sometimes the rating drops but the number of votes doesn't change!? especially in the time of 22.00-00.00... quite frustrating
i think a good way to handle all of this would be a limitation of the times you can revote, like 1, 2 or 3 times, personally i would remove the revote... but well, to be honest: for me it's going well in the moment so generally i don't care about it all :D, but i would be pleased if the voting behaviour would change and it seems like i at least care so much about that i post it here :)
edit: forgot to mention that i also think the mods do a great job in both ways. finding cheaters, low voters, multiple accs etc. and also with the unknown magically accepting randomness :D
I Know what you mean. First I didn't want to say something, since I'm only back a short while. But you only pointed out things, that already existed before I left WTM (and were part of the reason I left. I just got really upset to see some really good shots voted down just so other shots had a chance to make it to FF or because some people thought a special user already had enogh snaps in FF. And I'm not talking about my snaps either ;) And it even more upset me to see, that surely some people used multis or other" friends" to boost their (sometimes not even special) shots in the FF. ) Anyway... even I already realised an immense drop in the rating of shots. The first few days after my return the shots often had very high ratings and 6-7 was rare... most of the shots had 7 + ratings, SotD had 8 or higher most of the time. Now a 7+ rating is already something "special". The average rating for a shot seems to have shifted at least 1 star downwards. And this all just happened over the timespan of 2 weeks, so no wonder it was noticeable to me. Also I noticed very good shots getting rejected while other, sometimes worse shots made it to FF and even SotD. (All of course just my taste and I'm only speaking for myself here :) Now to my voting behavior. It ranges from 1 to 10... I try to use all the stars available, that's what they are for, right? ^^. I also use 10 rarely, because a shot has to be absolutely awesome to me... that's what the 10 is for in my eyes... if I would give it out all the time, wouldn't make it so special anymore, now would it? I also try to use the 1 very rarely and only when it is justified... shots that get a 1 from me have to be really bad quality, absoluteley boring with nothing special whatsoever (character shots for example) or "tasteless". Of course this is all very subjective and beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)
Edit: I would like to point out, that it was one of the reasons I decided to come back, because I saw that it seemed to be now fairer here with the ratings, when I saw how high good shots were rated. Now I already am not so sure if it was a good idea, but I will stay for now and see where this all leads ;)
@KajBorg to "I have noticed that some snapshot rating just seem to drop hard for no apparent reason" since many years the ratings drops slightly, if the 23 hours left comes closer. Thats nothing new. But this thing its allways much much worse, if Asmodai makes vacation. There are only 2 Mods, after Chrisy left WTM. MisterZob only push a small amount of shots, with a very close spectrum. So about 80% of the uploader gets for the time Asmodai is at vacation no magical accepts. This makes people said and it seems some people try to protect their own shots with low ratings on other shots. I got this conservation after nearly each Asmodai vacation with some friends here, we detect slightly lower rating after Asmodai is away some days. I can't get it, why they get no compensation for Chrisys leaving, WTM got many competent people like Fungus... a 3rd Mod will not solve the whole problem, but will compensate much. For example very frustrating: there are no AU/Memo handed out for the Uploader of Draw the movie and Montage effects. In both i got a shot in the Top 10. Asmodai told me some time ago, he have no time to look for cheating etc. it will take some more time... Now there are many months gone and i see until today nothing changed with my amout of AU and Memos...
@Winterwolf You wrote "MisterZob only push a small amount of shots, with a very close spectrum. So about 80% of the uploader gets for the time Asmodai is at vacation no magical accepts." Is this really true? I somehow can't believe this. I mean isn't it the "endeavour" of a mod to be neutral and objective when it comes to push shots to FF? Sure, a mod is a normal player too, but when it comes to accepting shots that person is a mod in that moment when it comes to that "task". I somehow really can't imagine MisterZob would neglect the purpose of this very feature. I mean, it is supposed to be for shots with few solves that got voted down etc. Otherwise it would be really sad... :(
Oh, Phoenix, you didn't know? I'm the Devil and Asmodai is an angel. Everybody knows that. Hence the drop in ratings: just because Asmodai is gone and I'm not gonna accept anything while is away. According to Winterwolf, I only push a few old shots every day, preferably from my so-called "friends". This has nothing to do with Winterwolf sharing Asmodai's taste and not mine, of course.
Seriously, about the global drop in ratings, I can't say I know why it's happening. Maybe a majority of users became tired of seeing similar shots of the same movies all over again. Or maybe because great uploads haven't been that many these days? About less shots being pushed, well, lately we're only getting half the amount of shots we used to get, a year ago, in NS. Why should we push as many as before? That would mean pushing shots that are not worth it. About which shots are pushed? Well, to me, it's always been about getting the right balance. I don't think WTM should be a gallery of CGI postcards. That's why I push some intriguing shots, some shots of more confidential movies (yeah, I still think WTM is also about promoting not-well known movies that are worth seeing), some shots of older movies (yeah, lots of great movies were made long before we were born), some shots from movies that don't have over 100 Archive shots already, and some shots that actually mean something (because movies are not only made of landscapes and sunsets). But those who think that's all I push should open their eyes. Oh, and by the way, for like the 100th time: I don't even look at the uploader's name. I pick the shots I push from the NS overview, where no name is shown. But I guess writing all this again won't change anything. Be my guest, blame the mod, that's what he is here for.
:O I didn't start this topic to blame any mods. I don't know who pushes what through, nor do I care. I was just putting in a little suggestion how the ratings might become more accurate. I think the mods are doing a fine job and they can not be blamed for any ratings (which this topic was originally about, well intended to be anyway :p)
@MisterZob Good answer :) But I'm supprised you are pushng shots from the overview. Some of them are quite difficult to understand when they are reduced to this tiny dimension. Anyway it's a good thing to hide the uploader's name.
@efji When I'm about to push them, I've already seen them in full size, back when I rated them and attempted to solve them. Then I usually remember what 2-day old shots look like just from their thumbnails. Of course, once in a while, for instance for really dark shots, I need to open them again to make sure.
I don't want to join the "blame the mods train" if there ever was one, but Winterwolf has raised a question (at least in my mind). Currently two mods are doing a lot of work (i'm sure much more than the "regular" players see anyway). I don't really see a reason not to recruit a new, third mod. Correct me if i'm wrong though.
@MisterZob, i think you're right about not pushing the same amount of shots through as a year ago. If there are less shots in NS, there should also be less shots in FF. No sense in pushing through "unworthy" shots.
Just my two cents.
Cheers
-edit, could someone explain to me why my forum avatar isn't working?
I don't see how a 3rd mod will solve the problem but that's just my personal opinion. A third mod won't change the way of rating or fix the actual drop or won't be able to push more shots because we don't want to push more shots: in august 2011 we had nearly 270 shots in the NS, now its around 160. The actual number of shots accepted and pushed per day is fine imo.
i already asked myself who could be a good 3rd mod and i didn't find one (again, just my opinion here). There are plenty of good regulars players who are here for a long time but Asmodai & Zob are doing it for such a long time, they worked with naut & tliff, they work with me for more than a year now, they know how the website works perfectly... I don't think they need help, they're doing great except when one is away like now but that's really rare. I also try to help them by giving information about cheaters (sorry guys, i think i'm responsible of more than 50% of the last warns/bans!!) and i coded a lot of features to help them moderate the community easily.
I'm not against changing the way of rating or the whole new submissions though. The actual drop in the ratings is a mystery for me. Boring shots? Less people voting 10? More people voting 1? More accurate votes because of the new features (AUs etc)? I don't know.. But since its a general drop on all shots, we should not worried, from time to time, the way of rating changes with newcomers etc, maybe in a month it would be back to *normal*, we will see..
And for Winterwolf, i already told you my thought about your DtM shot on IRC, for me you should not get any rewards because of the text on your shot which clearly asks people to vote 10 if they want a DtM 4 contest which makes the rating completely inaccurate. Just my personal opinion again, i'm not a mod (and i don't push shots).
Hey guys. Absolute value of ratings is not important (except for SotD vs SotM and SotY). Mods have launched a war against "systematic 10". "Please use the whole range 1-10". The effect is spectacular. Not a big deal except for the uploader's ego!
BTW "just a thought" is the appropriate subject: who is allowed to delete shouts??? and why? I made a spoiler (and spoiled) shout yesterday and it just disapeared, although it was fully relevant :)
Welcome back Asmo. I'm back too in uploading. Not very successful :) I must add that, with a more spread distribution of votes, a 10 is now more effective than before in pushing up the rating. Don't hesitate to vote 10 when you like any shot, especially mine :)
@MisterZob i am not often here last time, but many things not changed. You still see everythere that people just want bash you :) My thought was definitly not to do that. Fact is, after Asmodai is about 3-4 days not here (or better he push no shots, sometimes he was online and push nothing), the ratings drops about 0,3 in average. Add to the thing that people can get a warning, if they rate any shot a 10, it was possible you get a scruffy accept with a 7,15 some days ago. This problem seen the creator of the discussion i think. That i answered with my point of view. Now you need about a 7,4 to get a scruffy accept. The degrease from 7,8-8,0 to about 7,4-7,5 is just because people get a warning to give not every shot a 10. But this is just a feature not a problem, scruffy still push the same amout of shots, and the best shot is still sotd. Maybe a (not worse) problem... the SotD of the year will be not from july to december^^ I can't get it, why you see there any ofense^^ I don't get it, where i have written, you push just shots from friends. I don't written it, right? I only told that you push a small spectrum of kind of shots. Thats basically nothing bad. Thats just a fact. As long as Asmodai push also shots, you have a nice mix of nice/strange shots from well known/unknown movies.
To friends thing, you got as mod maybe the same problem as me and other people as uploader/voter. The mods gives often away warnings, because some people rate some fellows high, Shinigami16 for example. But this is not always unfair in my eyes. The thing is, you rate a real life friend high - thats just unfair. Or you found a friend here, which uploads you just like very much. There are some uploader in my friend list, just because i really like most of his/her uploaded shots. I give not a 10 because its my friend, i just give much shots a 10, because (s)he upload shots which i would choose myself too as first upload from a movie. Like Shimigami16 and other people get discredit from mods, you mods maybe get discredit from uploaders because your push thing. Thats life - for me thats nothing worse. The only thing i wanted to say is, this degrease of 0,3 if Asmodai is not here, will be avoidable. The people get no magicals, get frustrated, give other people lower ratings, to get a better chance of a scruffy push... this problem is easy avoidable. It must be not a 3rd mod, it would be fine too, if you or maybe Kinoute push some nice shots from well known movies at a time Asmodai is not here or have no time. Fact is, there are about 50-100 elite movie watchers and 2000 players, which are not watching so much movies, even not old ones. Think about to give them a nice dayly otherview too if Asmodai is not here.
@kinoute again what i told in last post "a 3rd Mod will not solve the whole problem, but will compensate much" First my 3rd place in draw the movie, doesn't matter for me if i get somthing or not. But there are 9 uploaders und 10 top solver deserve rewards, and thats unbelievable they had to wait 6 months for rewards. Even for montage effects, the GI problem not affect uploaders. So incomprehensible why there nothing happens with rewards for uploaders. Thats for me just one problem i see, the mods are overwhelmed. I think give away awards should be done in less than 1 month after the contest ends. So the cry from me for a 3rd or maybe some more mods. Maybe there is at the moment no perfect player for this job, but maybe some good ones. Just a thought, if you watch for a perfect woman, which is in all categories perfect, you will die alone^^ You are maybe not the perfect coder for wtm, you still need sometimes tliff or naut. But you are the best one is available and you make a really great job :) Maybe a player like Fungus should have a chance to get this gratification too. And MisterZob (and Asmodai too - i know at least 3 people they dont want talk to him because some harsh words - and these 3 players are not some unknown players - to pretent the angel/devil mod discussion^^) are just good mods, far away from perfect (as me far away from well-behaved player^^ so no ofense, nobody is perfect). Don't watch out for 10-25 years to find the perfect guy, take a look what people are now available and pick the best one and give him/her a chance...
The reactions to your points have been given many times before, so I won't repeat them.
But what is: we stopped giving vault rewards for more reasons than just GI. People are/were cheating in many other ways too, that also involve uploaders.
You're wrong for the Snapshot of the Year: the ratings of the 12 SotMs will be deleted (as we do for sidequests) and a new voting procedure will be announced to choose the SotY. So every SotM has its chances to win
Think I'll hop on the train soon then :D not too far from Leiden (Netherlands again).
Anyway, I didn't make this topic to bitch and moan about how things are going on the site. That's why I called it "just a thought", it was a suggestion, nothing more. I've only had 1 shot which I thought could've been SSotD and it might have been on another day but the rest of my shots were never intended to try for that so I can't really care that much about it.