or I'm simply getting mad and paranoid? :P

It happens all the time you go to bed with a shot at 7.60 and you wake up with a 7.00 (the good days ;-)) it's the same for everybody I think It's the game!

Happens to me, too - not to worry.
Or else, I'm getting mad and paranoid, too... ;-)

Welcome to the paranoid club. Count me in.
What surprises me, even after 9 years on the game, is that rates keep going down, very seldom up. It goes against all mathematics/statistics laws, but is true.
What really makes me paranoiac, which fortunately doesn't often happens, is when yours shot runs for the SotD. You have good rates and you know that you stand a good chance, cause it's 9 in the evening and 35 people have voted already. You get to whatever you have to do. And three hours later, or the next day, with only one or two votes, bad luck, your shot goes down to let's say 7.36, 2 favs. Like a coincidence, the SotD is rated 7.42, 2 favs. Then i really get suspicious. And I guess it happened to quite a few of us.
And all this is not about winning all the time. It's about not understanding and thinking it's simply not fair. It might be someone hating yours shot, and why not, but it might as well be someone who had a bad day and make you pay for it.
I also clearly noticed that uploading b/ w shots is getting lower ratings, on the whole. Keep doing it all the same.
Splendours and mysteries of WTM.
Nice week end everyone!

@lezard

First, you seem to forget WTM is a quiz. It's not supposed to be a place where people come to just browse movie stills. It's a place where users come to guess movies from snapshots.

Second, you seem to have misunderstood the "Do not rate the movie. Rate the awesomeness of the shot" rule. It just means "don't rate that shot 9 (or 2) because you think the movie is worth 9 (or 2)".
But it's a shot taken from a movie, for a movie quiz. Of course it's supposed to be more than a random frame taken from that movie.
As a matter of fact, it's been made clear, since the early days of WTM, that uploads were expected to be MANY THINGS other than just looking good. It's been reminded here: https://forum.whatthemovie.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=1066 (but you can see from the links in that discussion, that it is nothing new). The "awesomeness" of the shot doesn't just lie within its looks.
That's why the votes of people who solved the movie weigh more than the other votes. Because solvers are able to assess if that shot is interesting, as quiz material.

And FYI, WTM is *not* a beauty contest. Most definitely not. It was never meant to be.
That analogy is quite revealing. Many uploaders think that way: that they should upload something "beautiful".
Yet this is not what WTM is about.

The other thing that strikes me is that you seem to expect some kind of gratitude from your uploads. While the feeling is quite understandable, you shouldn't count on it.
A great number of votes come from users who don't upload. They don't look at shots as the result of some uploader's 'work', they just see some quiz material. And if they don't like it, they use the voting feature to make it clear.
This can be quite painful for uploaders (I know), but this is exactly what the NS section is for: picking shots for the quiz. Which means some will not make it...
I cannot emphasize this enough: votes in the NS section are about how good the shot is a candidate for the quiz, at the time it's been uploaded. It's not about the inherent value of the shot by itself.


Anyway, the timing of your post is perfect, because I've just had a little time to check something I've been thinking for months (maybe years):
*** WTM has become too difficult a quiz. ***
And IMO, this is actually the main reason why ratings are currently so low.

Here are some numbers: The average active user solves 11.7% of FF shots today, while it was 21.9% back in 2010.
This means the quiz is less fun. And this is most likely why the ratings keep dropping.
Remember most users come on WTM to play a game, not to look at pretty images. And when that game becomes boring, they find a way to tell us: the votes.

My point is: the ratings being so low is a signal. But the answer is not blaming voters. At least it's not that simple.
The quiz is less fun than it was. It's a fact (see the numbers above). And the only thing that can be responsible for that is the shots that are being uploaded.
Back in WTM "golden days", the quiz was more attractive because it did look like a game any movie lover could play. Now it seems designed for movie buffs either specialized in forgotten classics or in eye-candy cinematography (I'm pushing it a little, just to make a point).
WTM used to offer a wider range of different kinds of shots. Now it's down to a few "patterns" that seem to be uploaded over and over.
The only reaction you can get from this is boredom. Hence the low ratings.

Also, please understand I'm not pointing fingers here. I just took a step back and tried to look at the problem as a whole.
I think it's down to every uploader to make things move in the right direction. Every uploader should "do something" about this.
But be aware that it'll be slow, and sometimes unpleasant I'm afraid.
On the bright side, I know that the current uploaders are true WTM lovers. Therefore I expect they are willing to give it a try.

A few (final?) remarks:
-You can't expect every new (or old, for that matter) WTM player to visit the discussions and read what is supposed to have been specified.
-I never said, implied it should be a beauty contest, but denying that beauty is part of a shot, any shot is pointless as well. I wouldn't call it beauty but an aesthetic dimension. If you can find ONE film-photographer, cameraman, director who isn't concerned by the aesthetic dimension of the movie, I'd be glad to hear the name.
- In my previous shout, I keep speaking about pleasure, fun, playing. Still, for some reason, you tell me about expected gratitude (and it's not the first time you do). Where do I mention gratitude or the respect/gratitude due to me? (in what name?). Note that it's quite upsetting.
- if the quizz is getting harder it's also quite logical. With tons of shots already uploaded, the obvious, nice, easy ones have benn uploaded. You can't blame the uploaders as well. You can't choose pictures from blockbusters 10 years in a row.
As I said, I keep playing, I keep minding, and I expect no reward or gratitude!!! >Nice day everyone!

@lezard

But you did made an analogy with a beauty contest. Those are your own words. And I find them quite revealing.
Anyway, I never denied that beauty could be part of any shot. I said we expect more from shots uploaded on WTM than just looking good. As mentioned in the guidelines, good looking shots are welcome. It's just that we expect some other attributes (instead or in addition) as well.
As for the aesthetic dimension of a movie, once again, I don't deny it. But it would also be wrong to reduce movies to that sole dimension.

Maybe gratitude wasn't the appropriate word. But when you write "Where is the pleasure when you get a 5?", I wonder what you're talking about. From where I'm standing, it does look like you're expecting some kind of recognition/acknowledgement, if not for you (yet you wrote "when *you* get a 5"), at least for the shot you picked. And again, this is not what the voting feature is about. It's here to get users to choose [(in NS) or give some feedback on (in FF/Archive)] which shots they expect to see in the quiz. That feature's purpose is selecting material for a quiz, not assessing a cinematographer's work.

As for the quiz difficulty, I disagree with you. There was a time when it was almost impossible to take the slot of the latest blockbuster. Now weeks, sometimes even months, pass by until the next shot of some recent Marvel/DC/whatever movie is uploaded.
Why? Most likely because active uploaders are currently not numerous enough. Therefore uploads are limited to a few people's tastes (and movie collections). And it seems that among our faithful uploaders, blockbusters are not popular. That's OK with me. I'm not a big fan of those. But the quiz needs shots from them blockbusters anyway (just like it needs shots from classics or any other categories). And, more than blockbusters, the quiz needs easy shots.
And difficulty is not just about the movie being known or not. Once you picked a movie, whether it be well-known or not, there are still ways to adjust difficulty by picking the shot. Actually, part of the fun in the quiz is solving shots taken from films you haven't seen.
That's why, back in the early days of WTM, it was suggested that uploads from not-known movies should be way easier than those from the famous ones. Because if only a few people saw a movie, and you pick a hard-to-guess shot from it, then it's all the more unlikely to be solved. And a quiz needs shots to be solved. Nobody would play WTM if all shots were all close-ups of door knobs, or all sunsets with no distinctive elements.
It's still possible to upload easier-to-solve shots. The "obvious, nice, easy ones" haven't all been uploaded. New movies come out every week. And there's still much to do with the old ones.

By the way, I don't blame uploaders. I wish we had more of them. What I'm talking about is shots: the ones that currently make the quiz, the ones that users rates lately.
Additionally, I'm suggesting alternatives that active uploaders should consider exploring.


@lederniermetro

You're absolutely right, quiz-like shots are less likely to reach FF without "magic". If it's not recognizable enough, the votes will certainly be quite low. But that's where mods came in. As long as the shot reaches FF, who cares how it got there?

I'm just trying to understand. You are the one linking pleasure with ratings: "Where is the pleasure when you get a 5?", you wrote. I still don't understand what you mean by that.
That's why I'm making wild guesses.
I don't see how any pleasure could be associated with the ratings of the shots.

Aaaah, I can finally see where the misunderstanding comes from! :-)
What I keep telling is: WTM is a quiz, it must be fun to play. But to me, playing is guessing movies from shots. Period. It's not uploading them.
To me, uploading is about contributing . It is definitely less fun (that's why there are way fewer uploaders than solvers) and I wouldn't call uploading a game. Of course you can enjoy it too, somehow. Personally, I find some fun in picking the shot (while actually taking it and uploading it on WTM are both rather boring) and then watching it being solved (or not). I assume it's quite the same for all uploaders.
But when it comes to rating, whether it be casting a vote or watching shots being rated, I honestly don't see what fun/pleasure to expect. Rating doesn't look like a game to me, nor is it enjoyable.
That's why I still don't understand the "Where is the pleasure when you get a 5?" sentence. And since I'd like to understand (that's part of the job: understanding users' wishes), I made assumptions. The sentence clearly implies you expect something from ratings... So I first assumed it may be gratitude: you made it clear it wasn't. Then I assumed it was some sort of recognition (for the shot itself): that's not it either. It's still unclear to me. The rating should only be seen as an assessment of how much the shot is wanted for the quiz, right now. That's why it was implemented in the first place.

@greyhound
Many thanks for saying it's possible to enjoy high votes, without the least being obsessed by winning. I was beginning to think I was a one-of-a-kind weird player. Have a good day!

Hi all,

first of all sorry for such lame attitude - opening a thread and then just disappearing. Unfortunately I'm not active on the forums usually and simply don't have a habit to reply regularly...not an excuse though ;)

I see that some members of our community have the same impression as I do, which makes me happy as my doubts about being paranoid are gone now. :D I am monitoring my snapshots pretty much often and what I managed to notice is for example the situation in which I have 3 submitted snapshots each one of them opened in different tab.
The average for those 3 is lets say 7,2 with average of 20 votes. After refreshing the tabs like 30 mins later I saw that each one of them got exactly 3 votes and average went down from 7,2 to 6,6-6,7 (which is significant drop on that amount of votes/average rating). Which indicates that obviously there are three accounts that will probably go through all the snapshots submitted and down vote all (or most) of them for some reason. I have no other explanation for that. Really not sure whether someone monitors this, but could be interesting to observe. I will keep doing so and if admins (@misterzob) will be interested I can provide examples with screenshots before and after.

Regarding the ratings of snapshots - what I also noticed that generally snapshots with low number of solves will have much lower score than the ones that are widely known and have lots of solves. Which clearly indicates that people are not rating the snapshots but the movie or simply get frustrated not knowing what movie is it. And trust me I know as most of my snapshots have low number of solves.
I am fully aware, that unfortunately, this is not something admins or anyone can help with as it only depends on the people visiting the site. What makes me curious though is the question - why do we have this significant drop of average rating? I mean 5-7 years ago sometimes you couldn't upload snapshot that had rating 7-7,2. Nowadays there are SOTD's with 7,2... I have some snapshots being accepted with 6,6 (not a magically accepted one).

And totally agreed with @lezard regarding "Where is the pleasure when you get a 5, even if you know the others get 4.8? It's absurd". It kills so much joy in me to be honest. As I am actually watching each movie I post, stop so many times during the movie in order to capture the shot, rewinding, forwarding, catching the angles... And at the end the snapshot gets dumped while some other shot that is taken from hyped crap like "Avengers VII - the return of the toxic avenger vs superman's bride" gets accepted with a nice rating just because everyone knows it. Killjoy...

Cheers!
F.

I see how uploaders can get happy when one of their shot ends up with a high overall rating. Therefore I can understand that they're unhappy when it's the opposite.
But don't forget that the votes are part of a selection process, for a quiz.
When a shot gets low ratings, it's just voters sending a message... Which is also what they are doing when rating another 10 or fav'ing it. And they're entitled to send either of these messages. Actually they're expected to.

@Fasojko
Asmodai already answered to you: There is no suspicious behaviour regarding the votes on your shots. I've just checked again.
And we always keep an eye on votes to make sure users don't use that feature to improve their own stats.

The drop in ratings? It's always been there. Why? We don't exactly know. But why should it mean that the "late" votes are wrong? What makes the "early" votes right?
Actually, there's a reason why a shot must stay at least 24 hrs in NS: to collect enough votes. Because early votes are not representative enough.

And yes, people who solved a shot tend to rate it higher. It's only natural: they play a quiz and they expect shots to be solvable, at some point. And this doesn't mean *at all* that they rate the movie. They might actually hate it. But they're likely to think the shot was great quiz material anyway (since they solved it).
By the way, look closer: shots from "hyped craps" are not that successful these days...

As for ratings being higher some years ago: yes, they were. But what if they were actually too high at that time? That's a possibility too.
Also, keep in mind the votes are not supposed to reflect the inherent value of the shot itself. It's a selection process. Therefore timing is highly important: the same shot can be rejected (with low ratings) at some time, and get accepted (with higher ratings) months later. Because the votes are used to pick some shots, among others. Which means the overall rating of a shot probably also depends on what the voters think of the other recently uploaded shots. Not to mention that the voters themselves may change as months go by.

Bottom line is: When you upload a shot in NS, you submit it to a community's assessment. And you might find out that some people don't share your tastes. This is what voting is about.
My advice would be that you just accept it. There's actually no point in blaming the vote(r)s. When a shot of yours seems not as liked as you hoped for, there's 2 ways you can handle it: either you try to figure out why in order to make some adjustments for your next submissions, or just keep uploading what *you* think WTM needs. But you need to realize that with that 2nd option, the ratings on your shots are unlikely to improve.
Also you should stop monitoring your uploads' rating 24-7. All you'll get is frustration.

Wow. I'm speechless.
Sorry mate, even if 35 (or 35,000 for that matter) users rated a shot high, other users are entitled to rate it low. That's what voting is about. The fact that they cast their votes early or late is perfectly irrelevant. As long as a poll is open, votes are all taken into account the same way.

Also, there's no secret about how the displayed overall rating is calculated. You obviously didn't dig that deep.
And I don't see how that formula is relevant here. Unless you are implying that Asmodai and I are lying to you when we say that there's nothing wrong with the votes on your shots...
The approval is only based on the overall rating displayed below the shot.

The other (SotD, SotM, SotY) formulas are kept secret (from EVERYONE) for 2 reasons:
- We all know what happens when voters can guess an election outcome. If it doesn't go their way, they try and change it, not caring anymore about what their votes should mean, only thinking of the outcome they want.
- If it was disclosed, it would be discussed every other week by users arguing "it shouldn't be that way, it should take more/less [something] into account, ...".

@MisterZob glad I managed to do it

I think you completely misunderstood my point. Not saying that I find it unfair that people do cast the lower votes, it's perfectly natural and expected. I was saying that there is a pattern e.g. when getting closer to that 24 hour queue duration limit there is always increased number of down voting. Also I managed to notice several times when having 3 shots in the queue and checking the rating short term like 15-30 min, each one of them will receive 1 or max 2 votes. And on all shots the rating went drastically down (like 7,31 to 7.09) with that 1 or sometimes 2 votes. Most likely indicating one person went from shot to shot and down voted.
I mean what are the odds that the same person dislikes 3 different shots that much to give them between 1 and 3 (as I don't know how else the rating could go down that much)?

Why would you even think that I somehow implied you or Asmodai would be lying?

Regarding the reason for whether to keep the SOTD/M/Y formula secret or not...The first reason is exactly what I'm trying to point above, when 24 h comes the ppl might tend to down vote someone who's shot is a competitor, just to gain advantage. And just suggesting if there is a monitoring system for that.
For the second one couldn't agree more! ;)

Regarding how the overall rating is calculated , greyhound thanks for explaining. :) sounds a bit discriminating though, 1:3 ratio.

Look, I was not saying you didn't check or you are lying to me. Just asked if there is a mechanism in place to check that kind of situations. Not only for my shots, but in general.

But again after having 3 shots in the queue and seeing how each one of them got the same number of votes that were obviously super low. All of that after like 23-24 hours since I submitted it (and the shot did really well until then). All I can conclude is that someone down voted.

Anyhow I trust you are checking guys, really no need to argue. :) as well thanks for explaining it!


Regarding the voting ratio, well here I cannot agree at all. If the unwritten rule is "don't rate the movie - rate how awesome the shot is". Why would someone who watched the movie have advantage over someone who didn't? Since we should not rate the movie but the shot.

Hi Asmodai and thx for your opinion. Makes sense what you wrote.

Probably it depends on the perspective of the person voting. :)
E.g. my shots have pretty much low number of solves and I think that this makes me a bit "damaged" comparing to someone whos shots have high average number of solves. If I underatood the math well, rating of 8 counts as 1x8 if the person didn't solve the shot while it is being counted as 3x8 in case the shot has been solved?

If my understanding above is correct then the person posting well known movies with higher number of solves has huge advantage over someone doing the oposite.

Even though your opinion has my full support and understanding I simply think of it as unfair and too much commercialized. As for me to be more competitive I should start posting shots from commercially well known movies in orded to be more "successful" in wtm.
Having shots from lesser known movies brings the diversity and awarenes of movies that are not that commercial but still of high quality and value.

Cheers

@Fasojko

First, this is not Asmodai's (or my) "opinion". This is how it works and how it's been working for years. Be aware it will not be modified just because you wish it were different.

Second, shots from well-known movies do get their share of low votes too (mostly because many voters find them too easy to guess). And those low votes count triple too. Which is why the coefficient has less impact on shots from well-known movies than on those from lesser-known ones.
As a result, a "solved 8" will have more impact on the overall rating of a shot from a lesser-known movie than on a shot from a famous one.

Third, WTM does welcome film diversity. Actually we encourage it.
But that doesn't mean we will accept any shot from a newly added movie or from one with only a few shots in Archive.
WTM is a quiz. It must be enjoyable as such.
There even was a time when we didn't accept shots from movies with fewer than 1,000 votes on IMDb. We dropped that rule, because we think all feature films should be welcome on WTM. But it would be a mistake to forget why it was there in the first place: a quiz should be "playable". Uploading a shot that will stay unsolved is easy. But it's definitely not what WTM is looking for. That's why there's no reward/memorabilia based on unsolved uploads. We don't want the quiz to become a "hardcore movie buff" quiz.
And uploading shots from unknown movies remains quite tricky. Getting them accepted is a whole challenge actually.

When taking a shot from a lesser known-movie, uploaders should always ask themselves: is it actually "solvable"? And by "solvable", I mean by somebody who hasn't (re)watched the movie last week.
Ignoring that aspect will most likely lead to low votes. "Well it's a doorknob all right... How am I supposed to guess a movie from such a standard doorknob?" You can replace "doorknob" by "sunset", "moon", "pistol", "eye",... you'll get the same low vote (while it would have been different if it were the doorknob/sunset/moon/pistol/eye from an important scene of a famous movie).
But the opposite situation can lead to the same result: easy shots from famous movies will most likely be considered as boring by many voters, especially when there are too many of them.
Because timing is essential too. You can't just ignore what's been uploaded recently. It's in every voter's mind.
And when the quiz is not as "well-balanced" as it should be, it shows through the votes.

The thing is, before pushing the Upload button, uploaders should always try and put themselves into solvers's shoes: What reception can I hope for if I upload *that* *now*? Is it really the good time to upload this? Should I try something else now and try this later?

Again, I encourage uploaders to read those tips carefully, again and again (including the previous discussions that are referenced there): https://forum.whatthemovie.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=1066

Finally, when you talk about your being "more competitive" (as an uploader), you should ask yourself what matters the most to you: Being ranked as a top uploader? Or trying to provide WTM with shots you actually care about? Acheiving both is a real challenge, especially without making any compromise.
As explained before, the first purpose of uploading on WTM is contributing to the quiz, not winning something.

I'm sorry if you found my first sentence sarcastic, this was not intended at all. I was just making it clear that this is not a matter of personal opinions.

Anyway, based on your last post, I think we can agree that the answers you seeked were given.
Therefore this discussion will soon be closed.

Obviously you were actually given more information than you requested. I'm sorry if it seemed unsettling to you.
The thing is, since this here is a forum (not a user's profile), most of our answers were intended to be of general nature. Therefore you should not take all of them personally. Yet you should not ignore them either, you might find them useful some day.
Uploaders (not just you) have always been sensitive about how their shots are rated. This is absolutely natural. But this is quite a complex issue, with many more parameters to take into account than uploaders usually imagine. That's why it seemed a good opportunity to clarify some things. Again, this was not about you nor your uploads. I was merely using the questions you raised to point out things that uploaders may have overlooked.

To sum it up:
Before entering the quiz, shots are submitted to a community's vote. And the Staff is making sure there is no wrongful use of the voting tool.
Uploaders have to accept those votes (which are *not* solely based on how "good looking" the shot is), and the outcome. This is how it works here.
If somebody feel something is suspicious, they should report it to the Staff (Asmodai or me). And if the Staff's reply is "nothing's wrong here", they have to accept it too.

@yippiekayay
Hi,
I guess you'll have the same answers and as all of us, you'll have to accept it. Actually I've come to think votes are totally irrational and escape any explanation. Statistically shots should on the whole go up and down. Still most of them keep going down. The same shot that is refused today might go skyward or be SotD in a few months, and it did happen more than once. Plus, these days due to the "lock-up" many people are probably moody.
That's just the way it is and it's a pity it has discouraged many players, beginning with fasojko who started this discussion.
In the end, I give you my personal feeling. If I were sure people downvote because they:-don't like the shot -think it's too hard - think it's too easy, I would gladly accept it, but we aren't even sure and I'm afraid sometimes (maybe many times) they just downvote because they had a bad day, a pain in the ass or are just angry at something, and then why not blame it on the shots? It's harmless, except for the uploader.
Eventually you've got to keep watching, loving, trusting, uploading and playing. And the hell with the rest, and the hell with jerks. They will get tired. I won't cause I love cinema and I like the game.
Have a nice day!

@lezard
Thank you for your thoughts.
Just to be clear, my comment was about questioning certain behavior that seems to conflict with the rules, not a complaint about my personal shot. I really do believe people should vote as they please and their motivation (bad day, corona, etc.) to me is irrelevant.
You have a nice day as well!

@MisterZob
Next time I observe something, I'll come to the staff first. And again, that's what it was, an observation, not a complaint.

To be honest, I don't care how people perceive me when I ask a simple question on a forum. I asked politely how a suspicious (so it seemed to me) event can occur with a very clear disclaimer that I'm not complaining and take sole pleasure in contributing as an uploader (happy camper, I added).
If someone decides to make poor judgments about my feelings and motivations based on this, they're the one at fault, as far as I'm concerned. I won't change my tune for the wrong reasons when right reasons are available.

Like I said, I don't care that much about my ratings. What I noticed seemed in conflict with the rules and I took the effort to share my thoughts and discuss it.

I think the names of uploader should be anonymized in "new submissions",

Sorry about my English.

@Dejamort @yippiekayay
Hi! Not sure but I think the anonymity of uploaders was tried and given up. I must say, if you play for some time you recognize the type of shots of some players (or even the kind of movie they watch) because they have a"style". Shots by RDPL55 or Mister Zob for instance can often be spotted without looking at the name of the uploaders. Plus, what is suggested by anonymity is that some players vote differently according to the uploader. If this is the case, what can you do? Einstein once said: "2 things are infinite:space and human stupidity, and for space, sometimes, I'm not so sure." We are supposed to rate the shot, not the movie (which many players do anyway). But if they don't rate the shot, the movie but the uploader, it's beyond me. Of course, retaliation can happen. If you know that some players systematically downoad most of your shots (for some mysterious reason), then when you see one of their shots, the temptation to downvote is strong. But this seldom happens, I hope. Mostly because many downvoters never or rarely upload anything. It's so nice to "kill" others when uou personnaly take no risk. So comfortable! As to downvoting an other thing is to be considered. We don't all have the same conception of ratings. For instance, it happened that someone gave me a fav, shouted something like "Great shot!" and rated my shot 7. For me this is totally ununderstandable but it so happens. I give a 9 or a 10 to a "super shot" that I fav. It seems logical. But for these players (who remind me of some teachers) 7 seems to be a maximum. In this case, if you get a 5, it's not so bad ;"good shot!".
Have a nice day everyone! Keep posting! keep playing and long life to cinema!

So, we find this with the same 12 uploder friends who pass in FF.